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Author Topic:   Why Creationists' Willful Ignorance?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 182 (628701)
08-12-2011 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by dwise1
08-12-2011 10:34 AM


According to P.T. Barnum, a new one's born every minute.
Of course, the scientific illiterates I'm talking about are creationists, who are fed a steady diet of PRATTs in the creationist literature while being kept ignorance of the fact that many/most of those PRATTs were refuted decades before they were born.
How many, quantitatively, are there though?
Are we talking about a million people?
If someone wants to remain ignorant about something, then no problem. Not only is everybody ignorant about many things, there are also things that they would want to remain ignorant of; eg, for me that would be sports, "reality" TV, fashion, most post-1971 popular music, especially rap.
Unfortunately, we have poeple like hooah that demand that you know that you're wrong and feel that they owe it to the human race to edumacate you about these things. I suppose he could strap you to a chair and make you watch football.
The problem is when their ignorance has a political agenda that will sabotage society.
It should be fought politically. You can't force-educate people (not that *you* are advocating that).

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-12-2011 11:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

hooah212002
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 32 of 182 (628707)
08-12-2011 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by NoNukes
08-12-2011 10:14 AM


Sounds like you have a need for others to understand.
Are you saying you do not see that need? If they were a small, non-vocal minority, I wouldn't see a problem. However, IMO, they are holding humanity back.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 182 (628709)
08-12-2011 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by hooah212002
08-12-2011 10:58 AM


However, IMO, they are holding humanity back.
Start a new topic. I find them incredibly insignificant.

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 34 of 182 (628710)
08-12-2011 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by dwise1
08-11-2011 11:57 PM


OK. So how do we keep them from screwing up science education for the rest of us? And for their kids after they deconvert.
We have a fight on our hands.
We should probably expect to see more court battles about science education. Our only real armor is the First Amendment and the fear of the great expense involved in losing a first amendment case. Congress has come close on several occasions to passing laws that would remove the monetary penalties and lawyer fee awards for losing "religious freedom" first amendment cases. Republicans generally hate the ACLU. If such laws are ever enacted, expect more school systems to take on the risk.
If there is popular sentiment on the side of science education, it is not a strong majority. Apparently we live in a country in which there is a remarkably low acceptance of evolution. In many school systems, the sentiment is decidedly anti-evolution.
So far we've been fortunate that school boards and state legislators who have come up with these anti-science curricula have been fairly outspoken outside of the courtroom about their unconstitutional agenda. The more recent batch of laws are phrased as attempts to protect academic freedom, and the evidence of a purpose to promote religion may be a bit harder to find.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 182 (628712)
08-12-2011 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by hooah212002
08-12-2011 10:58 AM


Are you saying you do not see that need?
I'm saying that the need you perceive belongs to you and people like you. It is not a need felt by the people you want to change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by hooah212002, posted 08-12-2011 10:58 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 36 of 182 (628713)
08-12-2011 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
08-12-2011 11:17 AM


It is not a need felt by the people you want to change.
I never said, nor implied, that I thought they did.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

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Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 3910 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(1)
Message 37 of 182 (628723)
08-12-2011 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by New Cat's Eye
08-12-2011 10:42 AM


I think I see his point
Hello Catholic Scientist,
Unfortunately, we have people like hooah that demand that you know that you're wrong and feel that they owe it to the human race to edumacate you about these things.
this is not an uncommon thing. Throughout history, even today, people have been educating people, even by force. I am going to play the devils advocate. Sometimes it i the right thing to do. Do the people who are ignorant not have the right to know the truth. Some people want to hold very tightly to their beliefs but it is in their best interests to be told the truth. There rights need to be taken into account as well. Why allow someone to live their life in a manner that is unrequired, fearing god and following his rules, when it is known that this is doing nothing for them. If we allowed this to happen, in 100 years, wouldnt people ask us why we let them do it? Why we sat back and watched thousands of people live their life in fear and ignorance without doing anything to help them.
Rhetorical questions -
Do you think the early colonising powers should have put a stop to things like human sacrifice in cultures they found considering it wwas not helping them in the way they thought it was?
Do you think western nations should enter nations with their armies where human rights are being violated by groups because of their religious teachings?
Do you think we should force the catholic church to stop telling africans that condoms are a sin so they can avoid spreading the aids virus?
Do you believe that people who break the law because of their religious beliefs should be punished?
Criminals need re education all the time, thats why we send them to prison. I suppose they are not really ignorant of the law, they just dont care. Which is the case with a lot of the fundamentalist religious community.
These re examples where is could be considered that education by force could be considered a good thing.
It could be said that we do owe it to the species to make sure everyone is educated.
would it not be irresponsible to intentionally leave a group ignorant?
BEFORE YOU SMASH AWAY AT THE DISLIKE BUTTON - I am playing the devils advocate. The statement above were made in the interest of furthering the discussion. I think some of what Hooah and CS have said is correct.
Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-12-2011 12:04 PM Butterflytyrant has not replied

hooah212002
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 38 of 182 (628725)
08-12-2011 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Butterflytyrant
08-12-2011 11:48 AM


Re: I think I see his point
Throughout history, even today, people have been educating people, even by force.
Except for the fact that nowhere did I advocate such a thing, or eugenics for that matter.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-12-2011 11:48 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-12-2011 12:07 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 46 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-13-2011 9:36 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 182 (628728)
08-12-2011 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Butterflytyrant
08-12-2011 11:48 AM


Re: I think I see his point
Thanks for the reply, BFT
Throughout history, even today, people have been educating people, even by force.
In the US, education is mandatory for kids. Its illegal to not educate your child.
But that's not really what I'm talking about...
Why allow someone to live their life in a manner that is unrequired, fearing god and following his rules, when it is known that this is doing nothing for them. If we allowed this to happen, in 100 years, wouldnt people ask us why we let them do it? Why we sat back and watched thousands of people live their life in fear and ignorance without doing anything to help them.
Like we "helped" the Native Americans? What's wrong with just letting them have their culture and ignorance?
Do you think the early colonising powers should have put a stop to things like human sacrifice in cultures they found considering it wwas not helping them in the way they thought it was?
Do you think western nations should enter nations with their armies where human rights are being violated by groups because of their religious teachings?
Do you know the Prime Directive?
Do you think we should force the catholic church to stop telling africans that condoms are a sin so they can avoid spreading the aids virus?
Do you believe that people who break the law because of their religious beliefs should be punished?
I have no idea.
These re examples where is could be considered that education by force could be considered a good thing.
It could be said that we do owe it to the species to make sure everyone is educated.
would it not be irresponsible to intentionally leave a group ignorant?
What about culture? How about some flavor and color in the world. Unifying everyone into some light brown mush with no variety isn't something I'd like to see.
But I do see your point. However, I don't think the attitude that we must help the YEC's by educating them away from their beliefs is a good thing.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 182 (628729)
08-12-2011 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by hooah212002
08-12-2011 11:53 AM


Re: I think I see his point
Throughout history, even today, people have been educating people, even by force.
Except for the fact that nowhere did I advocate such a thing, or eugenics for that matter.
You said that we owe it to the human race to rid these people of their ignorance. You sound like an evangelical on his way to meet some indians...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by hooah212002, posted 08-12-2011 11:53 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 539 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 41 of 182 (628730)
08-12-2011 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by dwise1
08-11-2011 11:57 PM


OK. So how do we keep them from screwing up science education for the rest of us?
I've heard tell that they can be slain with silver bullets.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by dwise1, posted 08-11-2011 11:57 PM dwise1 has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 2779 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 42 of 182 (628747)
08-12-2011 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
08-12-2011 12:04 PM


Re: I think I see his point
CS writes:
Do you know the Prime Directive?
The prime directive is probably the worst idea conjured up by the creator of star trek. Such a directive is the ultimate excuse for someone to be heartless. In one TNG episode, Picard went as far as allowing an entire race of intelligent beings to die and even went as far as preventing a sociologist from trying to save a remnant of that culture.
You guys seem to debate things based solely on the white and black view. We either not interfere with their culture at all or we go in and wipe them off the face of the earth. To your views, there's no in-between or happy medium.
You guys give me the creep at night.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 182 (628749)
08-12-2011 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Taz
08-12-2011 1:44 PM


Re: I think I see his point
The prime directive is probably the worst idea conjured up by the creator of star trek. Such a directive is the ultimate excuse for someone to be heartless.
I don't think we can blame it all on Gene. In the original series, the prime directive was broken fairly regularly, and I cannot recall any consequences when Kirk did so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Taz, posted 08-12-2011 1:44 PM Taz has not replied

hooah212002
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 44 of 182 (628750)
08-12-2011 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by New Cat's Eye
08-12-2011 12:07 PM


Re: I think I see his point
You will notice that what I did not say was:
that we owe it to the human race to rid these people of their ignorance.
but rather:
quote:
It benefits humankind. The less ignorant people we have running around, the better.
Both statements, while similar, carry far different implications. What you gathered from my original intent was at the opposite end of what I actually meant, which could have been garnered from the context and the words I actually typed.
Of course, if YOU think killing people and use of force is the only way to help someone, then I can see why you would assume that is what I meant.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-12-2011 12:07 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 742 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 45 of 182 (628752)
08-12-2011 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Taz
08-12-2011 1:44 PM


Re: I think I see his point
The prime directive is probably the worst idea conjured up by the creator of star trek.
The problem was that it seemed to exist mainly to show how stupid it was if applied literally in all situations. I can recall one episode off the top of my head from The Next Generation where it was followed and it made sense to follow it.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
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