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Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 181 of 479 (628343)
08-08-2011 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by AZPaul3
08-08-2011 2:15 AM


AZPaul3 responds to me:
quote:
As I said the object's historical value is linked directly to the preserved event
But only because of its religious patina which necessarily excludes it from this particular museum.
I've asked you this twice, now, so it would be awfully nice if you answered it:
What other significance does it have?
quote:
and far outweighs the stand-alone religious significance you are so eager to taut as its only significance.
And that other significance is? You'd think after being asked directly twice for what that signficance is and your direct statement that it has another one, you'd be only too keen to explain what it is. So have at it.
What other significance does it have?
quote:
It was adopted as a religious symbol by some of the workers.
So you agree that it is purely a religious symbol and has no other significance.
So, I'm confused. You keep saying it has some other significance but the only one you bring forward is its religious patina which automatically excludes it from the museum. You need to have some other, non-religious purpose in order to get past the Lemon test.
So what other significance does it have?
quote:
No other such artifact existed on site.
And that doesn't tip you off? It's a purely religious item and thus has no place here. It would do so much more good at the church where it can be accessed by those who find its religious implications to be important.
quote:
Because if you had then the object's uniqueness within the history of the event, regardless of its religious overtones, would have bound that curator to its significance for the museum.
Nope. They all agree it's ludicrous to include it in the museum. They all agree that it serves no secular purpose and that it should remain at the church where it can be of more benefit to those who find it to be theologically important. In a secular museum, it will be stripped of it its iconography and turned into a piece of debris which insults the history of the item.
quote:
I understand this religious symbology does not sit well with some.
Huh? This isn't a question of "sitting well." This has to do with respect for the item. As one of my curator buddies put it, it'd be like draining the well at Lourdes so that some upstart French water company could sell it as a competitor to Evian (which is "naive" spelled backwards). The item has signficiance in the theology of a certain group and thus, to maintain that significance, it should be maintained in its sectarian setting. Anywhere else is inappropriate and disrespects the item.
quote:
The time to lodge a protest was when the beams were first used in a religious role.
Huh? That makes no sense. Why on earth would anybody protest someone exercising their religion over a piece of rubble? How rude.
quote:
It is a religious symbol.
But you just said that it wasn't just a religious symbol. So for the umpteenth time:
What other significance does it have?
quote:
But it also has a unique place in the history of the site
As what? What other significance does it have apart from its religious symbology?
quote:
And you cannot deny that unique history even in wanting to deny the religious BS the cross represents.
It is simplicity itself to deny something that doesn't exist. So help us out: What is this other significance that it has?
And why is that signficance so important that it overwhelms its religious symbology such that it must be taken away from that setting and placed in a setting where that theology can never be utilized again?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by AZPaul3, posted 08-08-2011 2:15 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 08-09-2011 4:58 AM Rrhain has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 182 of 479 (628358)
08-09-2011 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Rrhain
08-08-2011 11:45 PM


Its History is Still the Key.
quote:
As I said the object's historical value is linked directly to the preserved event
But only because of its religious patina which necessarily excludes it from this particular museum.
Any artifact of any significance from the site is subject to inclusion in the museum. That is what museums do. That is their reason for existence. Personal religious revulsion not withstanding.
I've asked you this twice, now, so it would be awfully nice if you answered it:
What other significance does it have?
You had your answer, if you had cared to actually read and comprehend.
From my Message 177:
quote:
It was a religious symbol on site. It was a worship station on site. It was a shrine to the fallen on site.
...
It is a religious symbol. It will always be a religious symbol.
This is the religious significance that seems to bother you so.
quote:
No other such artifact existed on site. It had a unique purpose on site that no other landmark had on site.
...
But it also has a unique place in the history of the site and, thus, in the remembrance of that event.
This is the "other" significance of the object that gives it the curatorial value for the museum.
It was quite plain in my message. I should not have had to spoon feed this to someone of your intellect. You're no dummy, Rrhain. I think you did not want to see this "other" significance the Cross holds. You may be blinded by the "religious patina" you so abhor.
It is a religious symbol. It has significance as a religious symbol. Its other significance is that it was on the site. It was used as a religious symbol on the recovery site. It was the only such symbol on the site. That is its unique history that ties it irrevocably to the event the museum is charged with remembering.
That is the purpose of the museum. That is the job of the curator. To acquire, preserve and display those unique artifacts with a direct history to the preserved event. The WTC Cross more than fits that requirement for the WTC Museum.
Now that the Museum has the artifact, if the curators are not incompetents like the ones you have been talking to, it will remain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Rrhain, posted 08-08-2011 11:45 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Rrhain, posted 08-09-2011 10:45 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 183 of 479 (628405)
08-09-2011 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by AZPaul3
08-09-2011 4:58 AM


AZPaul3 responds to me:
quote:
Any artifact of any significance from the site is subject to inclusion in the museum.
But this one has no significance.
What other significance does it have? How many times do I have to ask you that same question before you answer?
quote:
This is the "other" significance of the object that gives it the curatorial value for the museum.
What? What is it? Other than a small group of people thought it was religiously significant, what makes this piece of rubble deserving of being in the museum? More so than any other?
Be specific.
And if all you can come up with are religious reasons (and that has been the only reason you have come up with so far), then it doesn't belong here. It belongs in a church.
So for at least the eighth time:
What other significance does it have?
quote:
It is a religious symbol.
Then it doesn't belong. It really is that simple. If its only significance is religious, then it doesn't belong.
If it has some other significance, it might belong.
What other significance does it have?
quote:
Its other significance is that it was on the site.
There are plenty of other pieces of rubble. Why should this one be chosen?
What other significance does it have?
quote:
To acquire, preserve and display those unique artifacts with a direct history to the preserved event.
Indeed, but it must be within the scope of the project. This piece has no signficance other than what a tiny number of people painted upon it. Thus, it is of no concern.
What other significance does it have?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 08-09-2011 4:58 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by AZPaul3, posted 08-09-2011 6:19 PM Rrhain has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 184 of 479 (628466)
08-09-2011 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Rrhain
08-09-2011 10:45 AM


What other significance does it have? How many times do I have to ask you that same question before you answer?
Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
what makes this piece of rubble deserving of being in the museum? More so than any other?
Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
So for at least the eighth time:
What other significance does it have?
Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
If it has some other significance, it might belong.
What other significance does it have?
Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
There are plenty of other pieces of rubble. Why should this one be chosen?
What other significance does it have?
Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
What other significance does it have?
Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Rrhain, posted 08-09-2011 10:45 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Rrhain, posted 08-13-2011 4:09 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 185 of 479 (628481)
08-09-2011 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by New Cat's Eye
08-02-2011 10:35 AM


Indeed. And further, since the cross is being included for a secular reason, then they wouldn't even have to allow other religious symbols. The American Atheists have offered to make a piece for the museum, but why should their's be included? What significance does it have that would make it museum worthy?
What secular reason? If Kali inspires a DMV worker to do a better job, is that a secular reason?
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-02-2011 10:35 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2011 11:18 AM Trae has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 186 of 479 (628500)
08-10-2011 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by New Cat's Eye
08-08-2011 8:40 PM


Re: The History is Key
CS writes:
The religious symbolism is irrelevant.
Irrelevant to what?
It's role in the events of 9/11.....?
Or it's role in the museum? (in which case it can be displayed sideways, upside down or in any non-crucifix-like orientation) without losing any of it's "secular purpose")
CS writes:
Go back and read my posts again.
I have. Answer me one question honestly and non-evasively.
If this item were displayed in the museum upside down would those who want it included in the museum be happy with that display choice? If not why not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2011 8:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by cavediver, posted 08-10-2011 2:32 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 188 by cavediver, posted 08-10-2011 2:32 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 190 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2011 11:10 AM Straggler has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 187 of 479 (628504)
08-10-2011 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Straggler
08-10-2011 1:47 AM


Re: The History is Key
If this item were displayed in the museum upside down would those who want it included in the museum be happy with that display choice? If not why not?
Those working at Ground Zero happened upon a curious bending and fusing of a girder. It was bent around into a heart shape. In the midst of all the carnage, here was a symbol that love still survived no matter how much hatred was unleashed upon it. That heart-shaped girder was placed in a prominant position and gave hope and inspiration to the workers each day. Much later, a museum dedicated to the 9/11 attack made an exhibit of the girder. But for some reason they placed it upside down. Complaints were made. Were those complaints justified?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Straggler, posted 08-10-2011 1:47 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Straggler, posted 08-10-2011 9:05 AM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 188 of 479 (628505)
08-10-2011 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Straggler
08-10-2011 1:47 AM


Re: The History is Key
Sorry, double post.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Straggler, posted 08-10-2011 1:47 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 189 of 479 (628540)
08-10-2011 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by cavediver
08-10-2011 2:32 AM


Re: The History is Key
Yes those complaints are justified.
A heart is a symbol of love and hope and if displayed upside down it loses that meaning.
In exactly the same way that a Christian cross lose it's religious symbolism if displayed upside down......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by cavediver, posted 08-10-2011 2:32 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by cavediver, posted 08-13-2011 10:04 AM Straggler has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 479 (628613)
08-11-2011 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Straggler
08-10-2011 1:47 AM


Re: The History is Key
CS writes:
The religious symbolism is irrelevant.
Irrelevant to what?
My position. And apparently, AZPaul3's as well::
quote:
Yes, the Cross is an overtly religious symbol. Yes, the beams' shape as a cross were found in the wreckage and purposely erected on the site as an overtly religious symbol. Religious or not, the Cross was an integral part of the history of the event, which is not just the bombing but the recovery afterwords, and has bonafide value as a historic object inseparable from the event.
.
If this item were displayed in the museum upside down would those who want it included in the museum be happy with that display choice? If not why not?
"Those who want it included" is not some homogeneous group that could be blanketly described as being happy or unhappy with that display choice. I already answered that the cross displayed upside-down might be seen as disrespectful to the rescuer who were there that got the help from it.
But you still haven't answered my question: Why modify the cross so that it is upside-down? I see no reason to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Straggler, posted 08-10-2011 1:47 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Straggler, posted 08-15-2011 5:25 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 479 (628615)
08-11-2011 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Trae
08-09-2011 10:14 PM


What secular reason?
Please catch up on what's already been posted:
Message 59:
quote:
Museum officials said the cross was being displayed not because of its religious value but the role it played in the aftermath of the attacks.
"The mission of the National September 11 Memorial Museum is to tell the history of 9/11 through historic artefacts like the World Trade Center cross. This steel remnant became a symbol of spiritual comfort for the thousands of recovery workers who toiled at ground zero, as well as for people around the world," museum president Joe Daniels said in a statement.
Message 127:
quote:
How exactly did it help them?
Spiritual comfort in a time of high stress. Increase morale. Some sort of effort consilience. I dunno, I wasn't there. I'm just taking their word for it.
Message 144:
quote:
Its secular to me because:
  • Its from the actual building, i.e. its an artifact from the site itself
  • It played an important role in the resue operation

.
If Kali inspires a DMV worker to do a better job, is that a secular reason?
In a museum that was exhibiting things that have helped DMV workers, showing how Kali did could be done in a secular way, yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Trae, posted 08-09-2011 10:14 PM Trae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Trae, posted 08-18-2011 7:31 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 192 of 479 (628812)
08-13-2011 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by AZPaul3
08-09-2011 6:19 PM


AZPaul3 pretends to respond to me:
quote:
Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
I'll take the fourth option: You didn't actually answer, just like you didn't here, so i guess I get to ask again:
What other significance does it have? You've acknowledged its religious significance but if that is all it has, then it doesn't belong. Therefore, it must have some other significance that isn't rooted in its religious significance does it have? As examples, the rubble that was hit by the first plane or the second plane, the cornerstone of the building, the first girder raised when the building was erected, all of those would be signifies that would make it appropriate to be included.
What significance does it have that isn't part and parcel of its religious significance? What secular purpose does it serve?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by AZPaul3, posted 08-09-2011 6:19 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by AZPaul3, posted 08-13-2011 8:30 AM Rrhain has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 193 of 479 (628818)
08-13-2011 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Rrhain
08-13-2011 4:09 AM


What other significance does it have?
Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
What significance does it have that isn't part and parcel of its religious significance?
Historical. Just like I said in Message 177 and again in Message 182. Stop playing dumb.
What secular purpose does it serve?
History. Just like I said in Message 177 and again in Message 182. Stop playing dumb.
You've acknowledged its religious significance but if that is all it has, then it doesn't belong.
Why not?
Do you think the Cross was at some site other than ground zero? Do you deny that the object's significance and history was unique to ground zero?
Do you deny that preserving history has a secular purpose? Do you deny that preserving the history of ground zero has a secular purpose?
Do you deny that the museum's purpose is to acquire, protect and display the unique historical artifacts from ground zero?
Do you think just because the Cross had a "religious significance" at ground zero that its unique place in the history of the event, and thus the artifact's curatorial value, is somehow lost? Do you think that "religion" taints and poisons all artifacts into historical insignificance?
Edited by AZPaul3, : clarity
Edited by AZPaul3, : I wanted to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Rrhain, posted 08-13-2011 4:09 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Rrhain, posted 08-14-2011 8:05 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 194 of 479 (628827)
08-13-2011 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Straggler
08-10-2011 9:05 AM


Re: The History is Key
A heart is a symbol of love and hope and if displayed upside down it loses that meaning.
In exactly the same way that a Christian cross lose it's religious symbolism if displayed upside down...
Ok, fair enough. Should the "heart" be included in the museum? Should the "cross" be included in the museum?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Straggler, posted 08-10-2011 9:05 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Rrhain, posted 08-14-2011 8:21 PM cavediver has replied
 Message 199 by Straggler, posted 08-15-2011 5:35 AM cavediver has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 195 of 479 (628964)
08-14-2011 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by AZPaul3
08-13-2011 8:30 AM


AZPaul3 avoids the question yet again:
quote:
Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
I'll take the fourth option: None of that was an answer so I get to ask again.
What other significance does it have? You've acknowledged its religious significance but if that is all it has, then it doesn't belong. What other significance that isn't rooted in its religious significance does it have? As examples, the rubble that was hit by the first plane or the second plane, the cornerstone of the building, the first girder raised when the building was erected, all of those would be signifiers that would make it appropriate to be included.
What significance does it have that isn't part and parcel of its religious significance? What secular purpose does it serve?
quote:
quote:
You've acknowledged its religious significance but if that is all it has, then it doesn't belong.
Why not?
The First Amendment. Since the only significance of this object is sectarian, it has no place in a public museum. It should remain in its sectarian environment where it can do the most good.
quote:
Do you think the Cross was at some site other than ground zero?
Irrelevant. That it was at Ground Zero does not make it different from any other piece of rubble. If the point of the presentation is to display a piece of rubble, why is this one so important? Why not avoid even the appearance of impropriety and display another piece that isn't so coated with religious purpose?
quote:
Do you deny that the object's significance and history was unique to ground zero?
Yes. It is not unique in the slightest. There are literally buildings' worth of rubble that could be displayed if the only purpose of the exhibit is to show a piece of the wreckage.
What makes this one so important?
quote:
Do you deny that preserving history has a secular purpose?
Not at all. But what's so special about this piece? If the only purpose is to display a piece of rubble, why is this one so important? Why not show another piece that doesn't have any religious attachment to it?
What makes this one so important?
quote:
Do you deny that preserving the history of ground zero has a secular purpose?
Not at all.
But this piece has no historical significance.
What makes this piece so important?
quote:
Do you deny that the museum's purpose is to acquire, protect and display the unique historical artifacts from ground zero?
Not at all.
But this piece has no historical significance.
What makes this piece so important?
quote:
Do you think just because the Cross had a "religious significance" at ground zero that its unique place in the history of the event, and thus the artifact's curatorial value, is somehow lost?
No. I think this piece has no historical significance whatsoever and that its only significance is the religious importance a handful of people attached to it. Therefore, it is of no worth to the museum than any other piece of debris.
What makes this piece so important?
quote:
Do you think that "religion" taints and poisons all artifacts into historical insignificance?
Not at all. I think a piece whose only signficiance is religious has no place in a public museum but should instead be displayed in a sectarian museum where it can do the most good.
Hint: You will note that nobody is saying the piece should be hidden, destroyed, or in any way kept out of the public eye. But a public museum is for historical pieces, not religious ones, and this piece's only significance is religious in nature.
Unless you could be so kind as to indicate what other significance it has. What other significance does it have? You've acknowledged its religious significance but if that is all it has, then it doesn't belong. What other significance that isn't rooted in its religious significance does it have? As examples, the rubble that was hit by the first plane or the second plane, the cornerstone of the building, the first girder raised when the building was erected, all of those would be signifiers that would make it appropriate to be included.
What significance does it have that isn't part and parcel of its religious significance? What secular purpose does it serve?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by AZPaul3, posted 08-13-2011 8:30 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by AZPaul3, posted 08-16-2011 7:48 AM Rrhain has replied

  
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