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Author | Topic: Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 9975 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
Hi Taq. I have read and reread the "Materials and Methods" section and the "Results" section and I am not really going to discuss those sections with you. In my opinion I would need at least a Bachelors degree in biolog to intelligently discuss those sectons and most likely a Doctorate. When I get a chance later today I will walk through those sections for you and explain it in terms that a non-biologist would understand. It is vital to understand what the results were and how they got those results before you can even approach the discussion section. Conclusions with no connection to data are worthless.
I do believe I can talk about the Abstract and Discusion sections where the authors set forth what they believe the work they have done demonstrates. I can also discuss what I interpret those opinions to mean for the theory of evolution. I mean this with all due respect, but without a firm understanding of the science behind the conclusions you can not form a worthwhile opinion.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3620 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
I quote from Mind Matters. introduction by David Dobbs.
Emory University primatologist Frans de Waal and University of Chicago neurobiologist Peggy Mason, review both the history of animal studies of empathy and a particularly thought-provoking recent mouse study from the McGill University lab of Jeffrey Mogil. As de Waal and Mason note, this clever study holds surprises about both the baseline and the limitations of empathy in these small, "simple" rodents. One can't Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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Admin Director Posts: 12998 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Hi Zi Ko,
This is what you said back in Message 176:
zi ko in Message 176 writes: The rodents of Frans DE WAAL do they have theory of mind? This is a rhetorical question asserting that Frans de Waal has been working with rodents and that he has used this research to develop a theory of the mind. When this was challenged by WK you provided an excerpt that refers to de Wall as a primatologist, which supports WK. The excerpt also says that de Wall reviewed animal studies and so performed no rodent research himself, further supporting WK. And there is no mention in the excerpt about a theory of the mind. Zi Ko, please, no more discussion of empathy in this thread. No more discussion of a theory of the mind. And please, no replies to this message.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3620 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
So please describe this mechanism and how information is involved. As I am not the apropriate person to describe such a mechanismI quote from Shapiro: "The second major aspect of evolutionary change by natural genetic engineering is that it generally takes place after an activating event which produces what McClintock called a 'genome shock' [160] . Activating events include loss of food [18] , infection and interspecific hybridization (Tables 3 and 4) " Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Put space after ":" in subtitle to get rid of smilie.Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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Taq Member Posts: 9975 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
As I am not the apropriate person to describe such a mechanism I quote from Shapiro: "The second major aspect of evolutionary change by natural genetic engineering is that it generally takes place after an activating event which produces what McClintock called a 'genome shock' [160] . Activating events include loss of food [18] , infection and interspecific hybridization (Tables 3 and 4) " This mechanism increases the random mutation rate. FYI, I started a new thread on the Wright paper here. Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Put space after ":" in subtitle to get rid of smilie.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3620 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
This mechanism increases the random mutation rate. It increases mutation rate; in nature nothing is random relating life. This randomness serves life percerverance. Edited by zi ko, : No reason given. Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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Admin Director Posts: 12998 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Hi Zi Ko,
This type of contribution has been going on for too long:
it increases mutation rates.In nature nothing is random relating life. This "randomness" is serving life percerverance. In this short little paragraph you have bad capitalization, bad punctuation, bad grammar, and bad spelling, plus you're making an unsupported assertion ("nothing is random relating life") and displaying illogic (the "randomness" that can't exist "relating life" somehow exists sufficiently to serve "life percerverance"). Please try again, this time with proper capitalization, punctuation, grammar and spelling (is there a browser today that doesn't include spell checking?), and with your assertion properly explained and supported, which probably requires that you explain how you're defining "randomness" since you put it in quotes, but keep in mind that you will not be permitted your own personal definition of randomness, nor of any other words. And please, no replies to this message.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3620 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
The rodents of Frans DE WAAL do they have theory of mind? No. Edited by zi ko, : No reason given. Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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Admin Director Posts: 12998 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Me in Message 183:
Admin writes: Zi Ko, please, no more discussion of empathy in this thread. No more discussion of a theory of the mind. You in Message 188:
zi ko writes: But they feel empathy. Please no more talk about empathy or theories of the mind. The thread's topic is about whether information receives insufficient attention in evolutionary research. No one commented on your Message 158 where you attempted to define information by quoting from Wikipedia, so I will comment now. You have confounded two different definitions of information. This is the definition of information from information theory:
Wikipedia writes: Information in its most restricted technical sense is an ordered sequence of symbols that record or transmit a message. It can be recorded as signs, or conveyed as signals by waves. Information is any kind of event that affects the state of a dynamic system. These three sentences that you quoted were immediately followed by this sentence:
Wikipedia writes: As a concept, however, information has numerous meanings. And you then continue on to quote one of those other meanings, the one for sensory input. Please do not use two different definitions of information in the same thread. Please pick one or the other. If you choose information theory, then you must explain in what way information theory is receiving insufficient attention in evolutionary research. If you choose sensory input, then you must explain in what way sensory input is receiving insufficient attention in evolutionary research.
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Larni Member (Idle past 164 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
I honestly can't be bothered any more.
Beleive what ever makes you happiest.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3620 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Percy writes: Please do not use two different definitions of information in the same thread. Please pick one or the other. If you choose information theory, then you must explain in what way information theory is receiving insufficient attention in evolutionary research. If you choose sensory input, then you must explain in what way sensory input is receiving insufficient attention in evolutionary research. Sensory information can obviously be applied only to multicellular higher organisms with sensoral organs and neural system.Information defined in a more technical sense we find in one cell organisms and that happens in Shapiro's work. But going from one cell to to higher organisms and from one type of information to the other, there is no difference as information remains basically the same, an ordered sequence of symbols. It is not so much that information (both types) is not recieving adequate attention in research, as in accepting its significance in evolution for the known reasons; resistance to change and fear of giving arguments to IDs Edited by Admin, : Fix message subtitle.Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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Admin Director Posts: 12998 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Hi Zi Ko,
As moderator I am requesting that you focus on one definition of information. Pick which one you would like to focus on, either information theory or sensory input, and describe how science is failing to accept its significance in evolution.
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