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Author | Topic: Why are there no human apes alive today? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
caffeine Member (Idle past 1052 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
At the risk of overwhelming you with replies; you seem to accept that all other primates are primates, while rejecting humanity's membership of the Primate family, by pointing out some differences between humans and other primates. Problem is, every primate is different from other primates in some way - why do their differences not exclude the from the group, but humanity's differences do?
The list treats a wide array of things as if they'e constant over non-human primates which simply aren't. To take the most obvious example:
quote: Well, no. The great apes (excepting humans) have 48 chromosones, as do proboscis monkeys and rhesus monkeys. Capuchin monkeys have 54. Most gibbons seems to have 44 chromosones, though siamang have 50 and the concolor gibbon 52. Do we conclue that Capuchins aren't monkeys, and siamang aren't gibbons?
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2134 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Bones. Human bones are much lighter than comparable primate bones. For that matter, our bones are much lighter than the bones of every prehuman ancestor through Neanderthal. The ancestor bones look like primate bones; modern human bones do not.
When I took human osteology in graduate school we learned to identify all the bones in the human anatomy, down to small fragments. At the end of the semester the professor brought out a collection of various ape and monkey bones. To our surprise we were able to identify them also! The shapes were largely the same, although there were size and shape differences. But the size (and weight) differences were meaningless. It was the shapes that told the story. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Portillo Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 258 Joined: |
quote: I dont see what that has to do with anything. Doesnt evolution say that different races are at different stages of evolution and that the black race is closer related to the apes? Didnt scientists kill Aborigines in Australia to take back to England and proclaim them as the missing link? Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 865 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Portillo writes: I dont see what that has to do with anything. Doesnt evolution say that different races are at different stages of evolution and that the black race is closer related to the apes? Didnt scientists kill Aborigines in Australia to take back to England and proclaim them as the missing link? I sure hope this is satire, for your sake. The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes. Salman Rushdie This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen
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Portillo Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 258 Joined: |
Isnt the Origin of Species called "The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life".
"At some period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace, the savage races throughout the world." - Charles Darwin
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anglagard Member (Idle past 865 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Usually when confronted with something that stinks, I find the source.
Portillo writes: "At some period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace, the savage races throughout the world." - Charles Darwin Oops another violation of what is commonly referred to as a commandment from God, namely bearing false witness. From Notable Charles Darwin misquotes quote: You have to do better than that if you so choose to deal with the adults as we find ignorance boring. Oh, and welcome to EvC please remember to put on your armor. Edited by anglagard, : remash of last sentence Edited by anglagard, : Forgot to be civil to new members. The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes. Salman Rushdie This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Portillo writes: No. Evolution doesn’t say anything. In particular, it doesn't "say" anything you claim it "says". I dont see what that has to do with anything. Doesnt evolution say that different races are at different stages of evolution and that the black race is closer related to the apes? Paleontologists, archaeologists, anthropologists, etc., utilizing the empirical evidence obtained through hard work, deducted that modern humans developed in East Africa around 200 000 years ago. All modern humans. It includes everyone. European, Asian, African, Australasian, everyone.
Portillo writes: Any links to substantiate your claim? As far as I know no not one scientist killed Aboriginees for any claim like that. Non-scientists (religious folk and non-religious folk) did kill indigenous people all over Australia, because they thought that the Aboriginal people were inferior. Maybe some of these killers were scientists, but no scientist did it for the reasons you speculated they did. Didnt scientists kill Aborigines in Australia to take back to England and proclaim them as the missing link? Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
Hi Anglagard,
I don't really see how what you quote in any way rebuts Portillo's claim that Darwin at least saw human races as being on an evolutionary scale. The page you linked to gives Portillo's quote as one used to suggest that Darwin was advocating the extermination of the 'savage races', which would indeed be a quote mine. But the fuller quote actually seems to support Portillo's point ...
At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla. So Darwin clearly seems to be suggesting that there is less of an evolutionary gap between 'the negro or Australian and the gorilla' than between a Caucasian and a gorilla. While this may have been a view that Darwin held it certainly doesn't form any part of modern evolutionary theory, indeed modern comparative genetics strongly suggests that there is no such differential gap between different 'races', which isn't to say there are no genetic markers of ethnicity. TTFN, WK Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Didnt scientists kill Aborigines in Australia to take back to England and proclaim them as the missing link? quote: Source about 2/3 down under Anthropological interest. As appalling as this is by today's standards it comes as no surprise that today's modern creationists twist it sicker still in lying about scientists and outright murder in violation of their god's commandment. Another excellent example of the oxymoron "religious morality." Edited by AZPaul3, : detailed the source. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Isnt the Origin of Species called "The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life". Yes, by which he meant varieties and species of animals; he never mentioned the various races of humans anywhere in the Origin of Species.
"At some period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace, the savage races throughout the world." - Charles Darwin And his gloomy prediction was largely correct; but I don't see how you can hold that against him. Why, you yourself must have been right about something once or twice.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
So Darwin clearly seems to be suggesting that there is less of an evolutionary gap between 'the negro or Australian and the gorilla' than between a Caucasian and a gorilla. Only if he thought that a "civilized state" was a genetic property; and since five seconds' thought would show that it isn't, and Darwin was a genius, it is unlikely that this is what he meant. It is obvious that Darwin, of all people, knew that the various human races were part of a family tree and not of the "Great Chain of Being".
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Doesnt evolution say that different races are at different stages of evolution and that the black race is closer related to the apes? NO.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
Well I'm glad you had your Ouija board to hand to give us those insights into the mind of the deceased. Care to parse that conclusion out of anything that Darwin actually wrote?
Or alternatively would you care to explain how his statement makes any sense except with Caucasians or his hypothetical 'more civilised state' being further removed from the great apes than were negros or aboriginals? Appealing to genetics hardly helps since Darwin didn't actually know any genetics. Indeed the quote that Anglagard provided strongly suggests that Darwin associated civilisation with ...
The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Which he clearly seems to have felt did have a heritable basis. Earlier on he wrote ...
It must not be forgotten that although a high standard of morality gives but a slight or no advantage to each individual man and his children over the other men of the same tribe, yet that an advancement in the standard of morality and an increase in the number of well-endowed men will certainly give an immense advantage to one tribe over another. There can be no doubt that a tribe including many members who, from possessing in a high degree the spirit of patriotism, fidelity, obedience, courage, and sympathy, were always ready to give aid to each other and to sacrifice themselves for the common good, would be victorious over most other tribes; and this would be natural selection. At all times throughout the world tribes have supplanted other tribes; and as morality is one element in their success, the standard of morality and the number of well-endowed men will thus everywhere tend to rise and increase. So if you can use your psychic connection to once again tell us what Darwin really meant, instead of what he actually wrote, I'm sure that would help us out a lot. The attitude hardly reflects badly on Darwin given the times he lived in, your attitude is harder to explain . You seem to wish to represent Darwin as the sort of infallible genius creationists and IDists often mistakenly claim all evolutionists regard him as. If he was such a genius about genetic properties what was the whole pangenesis thing about? TTFN, WK
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Mazzy  Suspended Member (Idle past 4618 days) Posts: 212 From: Rural NSW, Australia Joined: |
Actually you are incorrect. Some scientists did refer to Aborigines as not being fully human but akin to homo erectus.
ABORIGINE EVOLUTION ASSUMES A MAJOR ROLE - The New York Times Evolution relies heavily on the disappearance of intermediate anything really. If other apes were sufficiently equipt to survive, as did the human line, then there is no reason that a representation of the rise to mankind shouldn't be around. Neanderthal used to be used as a represntation of mid species. They were represented as such and were good evidence for the transition from ape to man. However, as we all know, this is no longer the case with Neanderthal being classified by some scientists as homo sapiens neanderthalis, a human subspecies. The representations have changed from ape like to fully human looking in appearance. This revamp was not due to additional fossil finding. It was in response to the Neanderthal genome project. Therefore one cannot rely on representations as they reflect a bias towards what scientists think any organism would or should have looked like for evolution to be factual. It would have been better for evolutionists if all the evidence for evolution did not keep on disappearing and some ape man was still about. Another interesting twist to the topic is that no other organism has evolved high reasoning and perceptual capability. With all the homology around it is a shame we can't have a conversation with something like an evolved mouse or turtle. Edited by Mazzy, : No reason given.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
You're not a halfling Paladin, are you?
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