Jose Guerena

Without all the facts it is pretty hard to make a judgement on whether or not the shooting was justified. It doesn’t sound like it but then who do we believe? However, I think it is safe to say that this is another example of what we get when we let fear run our lives.I was pulled over the other month for an expired tag. The two officers approached the vehicle, one on either side, both with their hands hovering over their guns. This is mid day on a busy street in a small Ontario town where there might be one hand gun for every 10k people. After surrendering my papers and talking for a moment they both relaxed visibly. I had some beer in the back of the truck so they were apparently justified in giving me a breathalyser test. Before I could get into the cruiser to give a sample one officer asked me if I had any weapons. I was forced to surrender a utility tool that I carry, a pair of folding pliers with a knife and screw drivers. I laughed and asked him who should really feel threatened, me with a pair of pliers or them with two automatic weapons, extensive training, tazors, clubs, pepper spray and a shot gun in the trunk. On top of this, another cruiser pulled up to see if anybody needed a beating. He brushed it off saying it was routine. ‘Oh I see,’ I said, ‘you treat everyone like a criminal.’And this is the problem. Everyone is a criminal in the eyes of law enforcement. They have adopted policies that place the safety of the officers well above the safety of the public. The rights of the individual citizen are discarded out of hand when there is even the remotest of potential danger. We have accepted that it is reasonable to judge something’s use by it’s abuse. The fact that 1 in a 1000 people might actually physically resist a police officer gives them cause to carry an arsenal of weapons and wear flak jackets. It gives them a justification to taze confused old men and young children. To shoot people who are running away or defending their home and family.I fully realize that we need a strong law. That a strong law is what makes us free. It is what makes Canada and the US a better place to live than Somalia or Mexico. I also realize that we ask an impossible task of our police forces. That eventually we will have passed enough laws to make everyone a criminal. But when the police become ruled by their egos and fears and a sense of superiority, the whole thing begins to collapse. It leads to behaviour like that of Officer Bubbles It is completely disproportionate and out of line. We have allowed ourselves to be governed by our fears.It reminds me of some lines from ‘Tweeter and the Monkey Man’ by the Travelling Wilburys.‘The undercover cop pulled up and said everyone is a liar
If you don’t surrender now it’s going to go down to the wire.Ambulance pulled up, state trooper close behind
Tweeter took his gun away and messed up his mind.’

Primarily, because Jose did not discharge his weapon. But again the facts that we do have are not enough to pass judgement. That is not true. Think about all the people that you personally know. Is every one of them a potential violent criminal? That is like saying that everyone is a potential physics professor. Or did you mean a criminal like me for having an expired vehicle tag? SourceSo about 4 people out of every 100 were charged (maybe convicted) with a violent crime in 2004. This number dwindles even further when you take out the crimes against property and animals. Also, as I understand it, the vast majority of those convicted of a violent crime committed it against someone they know. Not against some random stranger and definitely not against the police. Hmmm. Was it carried out by the police and presented at a budget meeting? Can we have a look at it? Really Taz? How so? But that is my point. Their flags are always raised. Gain is set to 10.Don’t take my comments the wrong way. I have a high respect for the law. I have a default setting of politeness and respect whenever I interact with the police. I appreciate the shit that they are forced to deal with. I understand that somewhere in a cops mind he has to be aware that some people are violent and just waiting to go off. How does that justify treating everyone like a criminal when the real number of those people is less than 4 in a 100?I don’t know how it is where you are but up here the police swear an oath to be professional, to seek peaceful resolution to conflict, to serve the public. Who are they serving if everyone is a criminal in their opinion? Peaceful resolution seldom involves brute force and ignorance. This is how the police should conduct themselves.

It wasn’t a fire fight until the police started shooting. In fact it was never a fire fight as the bullets were all headed in one direction. Are you suddenly filled with the urge to beat me with a stick? How many of the people that you know personally are capable of being a violent criminal? All of them? I think you missed the point there. Saying that everyone is capable of being a violent criminal is just as wrong as saying that everyone is capable of being a physics professor. It just aint so. About as comfortable as I feel driving down a busy road. From what I see it looks like about 19 officers out of every 100k are killed each yr. About half of those are traffic fatalities. Which is not surprising given the amount of time they spend speeding around for no apparent reason. So, as Crash pointed out, it is not a particularly dangerous occupation. source sourceBack to your point in the OP about the tendency of the police to obfuscate the truth. I think it comes down to personal integrity. The fact of the matter is that there is a culture among law enforcement officers to think of themselves as superior to the rest of us, those who they claim to serve. The result is that we get a high percentage of police who are egotistical and self serving. They deliberately foster a work place environment that drives out the people, like yourself, who should be doing the police work.If anyone is interested they can take a look at this forum. Blue Line Forums - Index page
It will provide a fair insight into the mentality of the average law enforcement officer.

Who? Then in the same paragraph Well which is it Taz. They either speak the truth or they do not. You either have integrity or you do not. Using the facts to paint a false picture is not honesty but I think that we agree on this.Most of the people who want to be police officers probably shouldn’t be allowed. The police in general need a great big dose of humility and they need to understand that the confidence of the public is critical.

Doesn't that just make you sick? Compare that to this.

Must be a holdover from your police training.No Taz, I understand exactly what you are saying. You are just wrong. If someone deliberately tries to misrepresent the truth then they are a liar. No matter how many facts they use.

I agree. The absolute truth is relative just like most everything else. Perceived truth even more so. So we can both witness the same event and give conflicting accounts both of us believing that we are telling the truth. This is not the same as deliberately using the facts to misrepresent the truth for your own benefit. Lawyers do this all the time. In fact almost everybody does this. I guess we expect more of our armed and dangerous public servants who have sworn to conduct themselves with honour and integrity. That is the truth that I am talking about. Wouldn’t you love to hear the person/people who gave these orders step up and say they fucked up. Wouldn’t that be the honest thing to do? Once again it all comes down to the integrity of the individual people. Nary a one of em with the spine to admit their mistake. If there is a hint of justice it might be dragged out of them after spending an obscene amount of public money. Meanwhile there is a fatherless child who grows up hating every cop he sees. For what? To keep us all safe from our desires to get high? If the drugs were not illegal hardly nobody would pay them any mind and they sure wouldn’t be financing half the crime in the country. It is a positive feed back loop. Madness.Kudos to you, someone who has seen it first hand, for bringing it up.