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Author | Topic: Money Isn't a False God | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:So if the wealthy person doesn't trust in god or trust in money for happiness, then money isn't a false god, correct?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
In Message 1 I stated: This isn't about which gods are false, but what constitutes a false god.
I disagree that money can be construed as a false god in reality. In sermons and articles, authors include many things as "modern" false gods.
Your Gods Isaiah 44:17 And the rest of it he makes into a god, his idol, and falls down to it and worships it. He prays to it and says, "Deliver me, for you are my god!" (Isaiah 44:17) This verse says that a false god was worshiped because the idolater believed the block of wood could deliver him. Herein we find a definition for what constitutes a false god. According to Isaiah 44:17, a god is anything to which we ascribe the power to deliver us. Westerners have their own set of false godssources to which they turn for deliverance when in times of crisis or need (let the reader understand):Money Health insurance Medical treatment/prescriptions Social Security Retirement plans and IRA's Credit cards/consolidation loans Pleasure/entertainment/recreation/sports Sex Friends (to deliver us from loneliness) Counselors Lawsuits Filing bankruptcy I've shown other articles in this thread. They aren't talking about the love of money or obsessions. (Message 4, Message 51, Message 65) As I said in Message 25 concerning the Hebrews turning to foreign gods: It isn't about relying or trusting on everyday items to do what they are intended, but worshiping or relying on the god of another nation to provide for you as one feels their own god does. The phrase "worshiping money" has nothing to do with labeling various things as false gods. Love of money or greed is addressed in other lessons although some include love of money as a false god. If, as Martin Luther felt, your god is what your heart clings to, then our families would qualify as false gods. These articles aren't speaking of loving money or other things to the exclusion of spiritual endeavors. This is why I showed the different meanings of worship in Message 47.
Worship: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem This isn't how the phrase "money is a false god" is being used in what I've presented. As I said in Message 73: I have no idea what you are doing. It usually depends on how you use it in a sentence or lesson. The point is about what Christianity is doing and I feel they are. Of course, as I've just noticed, today Christians don't feel that the ancient gods were deities at all. IOW, they didn't exist unlike their own god. So it was just worshiping an idol (inanimate object). Since they only considered them idols, they are comparing money to those false gods. That's probably why I have a problem with the statement. I consider false gods to have been someone else's god. Even with my new understanding, there's a very different mindset between paying homage to an idol and expecting that idol to deliver one from a crisis and the insatiable greed for riches. They aren't the same.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Interesting. That may give a new insight to the teaching concerning two masters. Can't serve God and money. Money may have been an overt way of referring to Caesar since avarice was associated with Caesar. Just an interesting thought. I'll have to do more research.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:It isn't about what can be done, it is about what is done. People can be obsessive about anything. Idolize has two meanings also just like worship. One deals with paying homage to the idol and the other is the figurative use that deals with excessive admiration. Again, it depends on how it is being used. The issues I've shown aren't talking about excessive admiration. How many times do I need to say that? (Message 37, Message 47, Message 51, Message 63, Message 73, Message 81)
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Are all these things to be considered false gods?
MoneyHealth insurance Medical treatment/prescriptions Social Security Retirement plans and IRA's Credit cards/consolidation loans Pleasure/entertainment/recreation/sports Sex Friends (to deliver us from loneliness) Counselors Lawsuits Filing bankruptcy Some have added children to the list.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Another interesting thought. If a false god is that which we turn to or rely upon instead of God as some have mentioned, then by creating and supporting charities we create something the poor can to turn to or rely on instead of God. Did God really instruct us to do something that could potentially cause someone to stumble?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I didn't have time to address this earlier. The broader meanings of idol (adoring a person) and worship (excessive adoration) are attested to the late 1500's. I don't feel that having faith in an economic system is the same as choosing another god over God. We simply trust that every day things function the way they are supposed to. When you take the later broad meaning of worship, many things can become false gods. It doesn't really reflect the Bibles issue with false gods. As I've pointed out before, paying homage to idols in the Bible isn't about excessive adoration. Also the articles I've linked to aren't really talking about excessive adoration except when the love of money is thrown in. The issue seems to be the idea that we have chosen these every day things to sustain us instead of God. They liken it to the Hebrews feeling deserted by their God and turning to other gods. If my house is burning, I'm going to call the fire department. I'm not going to pray to God to put the fire out. A religious person may do both, but they will call the fire department. Adding a prayer to God doesn't change the fact that we trust that the fire department will come to our aid. I don't feel that God, Jesus, or Paul were trying to tell us not to rely on everyday things or systems to function as they are supposed to. God literally did not want his people to bow down to the gods of other nations. Trying to associate the things we rely on in our society as false gods is just a way to manipulate people IMO.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Straggler writes: No. As far as I can work it out your complaint in this thread is that metaphorical 'false gods' (such as wealth) aren't worshiped or idolised in the literal religious sense that a deity would be. Is this right? And if so why would you expect them to be? It doesn't work metaphorically. There is no real similarity IMO. People don't pay homage to money, sports, power, etc. the same way people paid homage to idols.People don't turn to money, sports, power, etc. the same way the Hebrews turned to foreign gods. It is the words worship and idolizing that have become figurative. So it seems that when some Christians talk of modern false gods, they are actually thinking of the later figurative meaning of worship or idol which has nothing to do with false gods. Some Christians feel these things are being substituted for God. Others seem to use a mixture of the obsession issue and the substitution issue. Some lessons do try to make people feel they are worshiping false gods. Not very metaphorical IMO. Another way to manipulate people. Just as Juliet is not the sun, money is not a false god.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Have you read the articles I've linked to or paid attention to the quotes. This isn't a hypothetical situation. It is about what is being taught and preached. Look at what they are calling false gods.
quote:One can describe wealth any way they want. But when one starts telling others that by having wealth or possession they are turning to false gods, that is different. They are trying to manipulate behavior. quote:What gods are figurative? The words worship and idol are not figurative when referring to gods or images of gods. They are when referring to people or things other than gods or images of gods. You need to provide an example of a real teaching you're talking about.
quote:I'm talking about things that are deemed false gods by Christians. You're attaching the figurative use of worship and idolize to the issue. Different behavior.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You didn't provide verses. Yes, Jesus and Paul taught that greed is wrong. Paul compared inordinate desire for wealth or possessions to idolatry. The money isn't compared. The behavior is compared. In the articles I've provided, the authors aren't talking about greed or avarice. When they refer to love of money they are, but wealthy people aren't automatically greedy. Neither Jesus nor Paul says we can't be wealthy.
Things the Apostle Paul Teaches Us About Money The first is that Paul never says that money itself is a root of evil — rather he says that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. ... But, if you are rich, you have to be careful — and you have to be generous. Look at what Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:17-18: As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share. The idea that ordinary things in our life should be likened to choosing false gods simply because we enjoy them or rely on their function, is absurd. Still not talking about obsession.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You do realize it has been almost 10 days since those posts. I have a life outside of this board and it has many things that are a bit more important than remembering those verses. When you are referencing verses you have already posted, a link to the post would be helpful. You said message 34 (no link). When no link is provided and I'm short on time, I don't take the time to go back. Now that I've looked at Message 34, the verses aren't listed in that post either.
quote:As you noted, I did address them in Message 33. I also addressed the issue in Message 102. Jesus and Paul addressed behavior. Comparing greed to idolatry was Paul's way of vilifying greed. In reality, greed isn't idolatry either. He used an unacceptable action to vilify another unacceptable action. So if those who compare money to false gods do so to vilify money, that's not a good message. Money is something that is necessary to daily life. Do all the items in Message 81 deserve to be vilified?Some even add church and children to the list. Vilify the behavior as Paul did, don't vilify the object.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Sigh! As I've pointed out many, many, many times in this thread, the accumulation of wealth is not forbidden. Covetousness is forbidden. The difference is in how one accumulates their wealth. If done honestly, there is no problem. If done dishonestly it is covetousness. The point being that the person wants what others have and will take it illegally. That's why it ends up on the wicked list along with idolatry. I don't think Paul was using the word idolatry as a metaphor for greed.
quote:I don't know that I did claim that. I've referred to the meanings of our English words "idol" and "worship". In Message 95, I stated: The broader meanings of idol (adoring a person) and worship (excessive adoration) are attested to the late 1500's. IOW, when used in the Bible we need to be careful we don't assume a later meaning and understand them as the people of the time would have. We have to understand the metaphor in the context of their time, not ours. Paul's metaphor concerning greed isn't pointed at the money. It is the behavior. I showed you in Message 102 that Paul had nothing against wealth. How was covetousness like idolatry in Paul's day?
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