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Author | Topic: Money Isn't a False God | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2383 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
purpledawn writes:
Psalm 20:7 presents horses and chariots as alternatives to God. Perhaps "substitutes for God" or "substitute gods" would be more accurate terms than "false gods." We can quibble about the semantics, but I believe this is what many people mean by "false gods." quote:But how does money take God's place in reality? In the United States, we need money to buy food, clothing, housing, and utilities. These are all the basic things we need to survive. How does God provide for our physical well being without money? The song in Psalm 20 you quoted doesn't portray the horses and chariots as gods or false gods though. Two teams playing basketball. One team relies on their skill and training to win the game. The other team relies only on God to win the game. Does that mean the team relying on God doesn't practice, learn the rules, work out, etc.? IMO, they will work just as hard as the other team to get in shape and prepare for the game, just as the armies in Psalm 20 did. I don't see that people rely anymore on money than they do on food for their physical well being. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3709 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:It doesn't matter what religion we're dealing with. IMO, serving and worshiping are not the same. We can't serve money or power. They aren't entities. Our hearts are wrapped up in survival. That's what we do on a daily basis. Money is necessary for survival. How is being "wrapped up" in money any different than being wrapped up in hunting for food or growing food. We are wrapped up in survival and survival of our families. Show me how someone worships or serves money today. Give me a real example.
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frako Member Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined:
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Everyone loves money even god isn't there a story in the bible where a king counted the people and do to some bible law forgot he cant count something that is not his and as a reprimand forgot to pay god 6 shekels (even though got told him to count the people i think) and that made god angry and he let loose a plague.
God was pissed for not getting payed so money is a good thing.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3709 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I disagree. It's a song that emphasizes the Hebrews had a powerful god on their side besides their own strength. Like I said, the Hebrews would still have prepared mentally and physically for battle and part of that is attitude. Money is not a substitute god. Show me how people today consider it a substitute god. We have to get past the catch phrases and the creative writing and look at reality. One can love their god all they want, but they can't just sit on their bums and not do anything. They have to work at survival.
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
purpledawn writes: Our hearts are wrapped up in survival. That's what we do on a daily basis. Money is necessary for survival. How is being "wrapped up" in money any different than being wrapped up in hunting for food or growing food. We are wrapped up in survival and survival of our families. I'm not talking money for "survival". I'm talking about accumulating money in order to gain power and influence, or accumulating money just for the point of seeing rich you can become. Money for survival, or money to help those that need help is a good thing. Edited by GDR, : No reason given.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2383 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
purpledawn writes:
Can you please clarify what you disagree with? Certainly you don't disagree that these are presented as two alternatives? Here again is Ps 20:7
quote:I disagree. It's a song that emphasizes the Hebrews had a powerful god on their side besides their own strength. Like I said, the Hebrews would still have prepared mentally and physically for battle and part of that is attitude. Money is not a substitute god. Show me how people today consider it a substitute god. We have to get past the catch phrases and the creative writing and look at reality. One can love their god all they want, but they can't just sit on their bums and not do anything. They have to work at survival.quote:Notice the wording. It doesn't say "and we also depend on the LORD our God." Rather, it says "but we depend on the LORD our God." The word "but" is functioning as an adversative, "implying opposition or contrast." The text says they were depending on God instead of chariots and horses. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3709 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:It doesn't matter. Accumulating anything just for the sake of having it doesn't make that thing a false god. It doesn't mean that one's heart isn't with the god of their choice. There is nothing wrong with having power and influence. A selfish person is selfish whether they have a ton of money or not. Money cannot be accurately likened to a deity or false deity.
quote:Starting a business that creates jobs can help those in need. There are many ways to help those in need besides handing them money. You haven't shown me that money is anything like a false god. There's no worship of it or serving it.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3709 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I disagree that the song presents the chariots and horses as substitute for a god. It's a song to inspire the Hebrews not provide facts. quote:Again, it's a song. Limited wording. Like I said in Message 11: Two teams playing basketball. One team relies on their skill and training to win the game. The other team relies only on God to win the game. Does that mean the team relying on God doesn't practice, learn the rules, work out, etc.? IMO, they will work just as hard as the other team to get in shape and prepare for the game, just as the armies in Psalm 20 did. The Hebrews would still have prepared mentally and physically for battle. Even this commentary doesn't assume the Hebrews didn't prepare and doesn't imply the horses and chariots were substitutes for a god.
And some in horses - Some in cavalry, commonly a very material reliance in war. The use of horses in war was early known in the world, for we find mention of them in the earliest periods of history.
But we will remember the name of the Lord our God - That is, we will remember God - the name, as before remarked, often being used to denote the person. The meaning is, We will not forget that our reliance is not on armies, but on God, the living God. Whatever instrumentality we may employ, we will remember always that our hope is in God, and that he only can give success to our arms.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2383 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
purpledawn writes:
Perhaps our disagreement is just semantic. I agree with your commentary; it means that "our reliance is not on armies, but on God." It's an issue of reliance or trust, and two possible objects of trust are contrasted. The Hebrews would still have prepared mentally and physically for battle. Even this commentary doesn't assume the Hebrews didn't prepare and doesn't imply the horses and chariots were substitutes for a god.
And some in horses - Some in cavalry, commonly a very material reliance in war. The use of horses in war was early known in the world, for we find mention of them in the earliest periods of history. But we will remember the name of the Lord our God - That is, we will remember God - the name, as before remarked, often being used to denote the person. The meaning is, We will not forget that our reliance is not on armies, but on God, the living God. Whatever instrumentality we may employ, we will remember always that our hope is in God, and that he only can give success to our arms. It may be helpful to look at occurrences of the phrase "false gods" in English Bible translations. Here are the passages I've found where multiple translations use the phrase: Jer 13:25, where the issue is the object of their trust, similar to Ps 20:7 above:
quote: Jer 14:22, where the issues are both power or ability, and also the object of their trust:
quote: Jer 16:19, where the issue is strength and the ability to help:
quote: Jer 18:15, where the issue is sacrifice:
quote: Amos 2:4, where the issue is obedience:
quote: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3709 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:It's semantics in the sense that you've changed the meaning of false god(s). One's god of choice does not want his followers to put their trust and reliance in another god for support. That is what they are talking about in Jeremiah. Yahweh didn't want his people to worship (trust, rely) the gods of the surrounding nations.
Jeremiah Such was the lust of the nation for false gods that after Josiah’s death, the nation would quickly return to the gods of the surrounding nations. Jeremiah was appointed to reveal the sins of the people and the coming consequences. False Gods of the Bible and the Ancient World Judg:2:11: And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim: Judg:2:13: And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. Judg:3:7: And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves. Judg:8:33: And it came to pass, as soon as Gideon was dead, that the children of Israel turned again, and went a whoring after Baalim, and made Baal-berith their god. Jer:2:23: How canst thou say, I am not polluted, I have not gone after Baalim? see thy way in the valley, know what thou hast done: thou art a swift dromedary traversing her ways; From the Jewish perspective, false gods are the gods of other nations. It isn't about relying or trusting on everyday items to do what they are intended, but worshiping or relying on the god of another nation to provide for you as one feels their own god does. As mentioned in Jeremiah 14:22, the ancients relied on gods for rain and sunshine to provide food. They sacrificed and gave praise to the god of their choice. We don't do this with money. The personification of money in the NT to make a point against not sharing doesn't mean that people actually worshiped money. There may have been a god of riches called Mammon, but info is sketchy. Even a god of money doesn't make money a god/false god.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1719 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
One's god of choice does not want his followers to put their trust and reliance in another god for support. That is what they are talking about in Jeremiah. Obviously it was intended as a non-compete clause for religions at the time. But don't you think that's a pretty narrow way to construe it these days? There's not a lot of competition for Christianity anymore, at least not among polytheistic religions. That's the reason that the passage in Jeremiah is interpreted, in modern theology, to refer to not letting shallow material concerns, like wealth, power, prestige, or influence, supersede more important spiritual concerns. In that sense money - personified in Christian mythology as "Mammon" - very much is a false god. I just don't see how that can be denied except for very narrow interpretations of "god". And you wouldn't be trying to define or limit God from your narrow human perspective, now would you?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3709 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I think it is an appropriate way to construe it. There are plenty of teachings concerning spiritual concerns without turning money into a false god.
quote:In that sense, the personification is a false god if worshiped, not actual money or having wealth. Having wealth doesn't mean one worships the god, Mammon. Having wealth doesn't mean it gets in the way of spiritual concerns. I'm not limiting, I'm just not watering down the meaning of a deity.
Nature Deities Artemis, goddess of the hunt, wild animals, wilderness, childbirth, virginity, fertility, young girls and health and plague in women Artemis is the goddess or false god, not the things she represents.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1719 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Having wealth doesn't mean one worships the god, Mammon. Having wealth doesn't mean it gets in the way of spiritual concerns. Right, but the phrase "worshipping Mammon" means "letting the pursuit of wealth get in the way of spiritual concerns." Nobody actually worships Mammon - there's no Mammon cult, there are no temples to Mammon*, there's no traditional Mammon scriptures - the "god" Mammon has only ever existed as a negative example, as a metaphor. "Worshipping Mammon" as a term doesn't refer to anything but letting the pursuit of wealth get in the way of spiritual concerns. "Mammon" is precisely how money can be a "false god."
Artemis is the goddess or false god, not the things she represents. No, that's exactly wrong. Artemis is the hunt. She is the young virgin. She is the wild woman. That's what it means to be the personification of those things - the deity of those things. It's not like she's some divine bureaucrat whose job it is to manage hunts, and virginal girls, and the fertility of women. Artemis is those things - what divinity is in hunting, or virginity, or a woman's power of lifegiving is Artemis's divinity, specifically. She is in and of those things, and they are in and of her. *Yeah, I know, wags - Wall Street, Donald Trump's biography - but that's my point - those are only metaphorically temples and scriptures.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3709 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Exactly! quote:I still disagree that it makes money a false god. As you said, no one is worshiping anything, therefore money can't be a false god. Mammon is more wealth personified, than just money.
quote:Those are the things that are personified in the goddess called Artemis. People prayed to her for a good hunt or a healthy child. The child and the hunt are not the gods/false gods. The personification that became Artemis is the god/false god.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1719 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
As you said, no one is worshiping anything, therefore money can't be a false god. You've already agreed, though, that that's not what "worshiping a false god" means. You've agreed that it doesn't mean temples and prostrate worship; you've agreed that it means "putting material concerns ahead of spiritual ones." Therefore by your own agreement putting money ahead of spiritual matters is "worshiping a false god", and the "false god" being worshiped in this instance is money. So, you've already agreed that money can be a false god. Would you like to walk back your previous agreement about the modern understanding of "worshiping false gods"? It certainly wouldn't be the first time you've changed your mind rather than face the consequences of what you've already accepted.
Those are the things that are personified in the goddess called Artemis. Right, because those are her domains. The young virgin is Artemis. The expecting mother is Artemis. The ebb and flow of seasons is Artemis. The hunt is Artemis. The wild place is Artemis. All of those things are Artemis and Artemis is all of those things. That's what it means to be the "god" of something. Artemis is the hunt, so she is manifest in the hunt.
The child and the hunt are not the gods/false gods. Worshiping the hunt would certainly be worshiping a false god, both in the modern sense you've already agreed to, and the ancient sense of competition with the Hebrew God.
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