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Author | Topic: Born Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
But the revelation from God wasn't something spooky that required a decoder ring. The Old Testament prophets weren't telling the people anything they couldn't figure out for themselves. The Assyrians are coming? No surprises there. This strikes me as Jesus saying the He and John the Baptist and the prophets are the genuine teachers of Israel. They are speak according to the revelation of God. The Old Testament prophets telling the people over and over again to get right with God seems to affirm that renewal/revival/rebirth is an ongoing process, not a one-time thing. If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
But the revelation from God wasn't something spooky that required a decoder ring. These are words of ridicule. Perhaps you use words like "spooky" as an excuse to introduce some understanding of the teaching of Jesus which is wholly unenlightened, natural, and of the carnal mind and void of spiritual experience. It might even be some antichrist teaching you wish to propogate. So you use "spooky" as a slander upon believers who have had the experience of regeneration. And "decoder ring" also is a phrase of ridicule.
"But the soulish man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he is not able to know them because they are discerned spiritually." ( 1 Cor. 2:14) Perhaps some, from whom you lifted this phrase, were soulish men who cannot spiritually discern the things in the Bible. You also may be damaged in this way. So to justify your desire to impose your soulish concepts on God's revelation, you slanderously and mockingly refer to "decoder ring". In another book, Daniel, it is said that none of the wicked shall understand:
"Many will be purified, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand." (Dan. 12:10) Being regenerated is a matter of being purified and cleansed in Christ's redemption. And spiritual growth leads to a kind of refinement. People with experience can be trusted to interpret the words of Jesus better then those who remain in their wickedness. Perhaps, you refer to "decoder ring" because you are wicked and do not understand. Rather than seek to be born again through prayer, you twist the meaning to something which allows you to remain in your wickedness. And you justify this wickedness by slandering as "spooky" the understanding of those who have been born again. And you slander them charging them of using a "decoder ring". These slanders may simply be your mechanisms to justify yourself as a wicked sinner who has no need of salvation through Jesus Christ.
The Old Testament prophets weren't telling the people anything they couldn't figure out for themselves. The Assyrians are coming? No surprises there. To simplify all the prophecy in the Old Testament with one phrase "The Assyrians are coming" is a gross over simplification. This is typical of people who rarely read the Bible but fancy themselves as experts on its contents.
The Old Testament prophets telling the people over and over again to get right with God seems to affirm that renewal/revival/rebirth is an ongoing process, not a one-time thing. That is really a completely different argument. Born again strongly implies the need for growth, development, maturity. So making "renewal/revival/rebirth and ongoing process" is a poor rational for ridiculing the teaching as "spooky". That regeneration implies receiving a new life of course strongly is taught as needing the nourishment and growth of that life received.
"As new born babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation" (1 Peter 2:2) To those with experience there is no "decoder ring" involved. To be born again is to become a baby spiritually. And such a babe should long to nourish this new life by the pure milk of the word of God. For the word of God is food. However, many wicked people come to the Bible not for spiritual food but for all kinds of other reasons. They do not get the nourishing food in the word of God. And it actually acts to harden them more and more. As some of the wicked ones in this forum who year after year handle the Bible but not for its spiritual nourishment. They are not growing. Many have never become babes in the spirit to begin with. The word is not feeding them. Rather year after year it is causing them to become more rebellious, more blind, and more unbelieving. This is tragic. So do not use "spooky" and "decoder ring" to rationalize your unbelief and rebellion against the New Testament revelation. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
It's an argument that your rant doesn't address. Let's try again: That is really a completely different argument. Jesus said that Nicodemus should know what "born again" means, since he was a Jewish leader. The Old Testament prophets had to help renew the children of Israel multiple times. So Jesus seems to be suggesting an ongoing revival/regeneration. If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
As some of the wicked ones in this forum who year after year handle the Bible but not for its spiritual nourishment. They are not growing. Many have never become babes in the spirit to begin with. The word is not feeding them. Rather year after year it is causing them to become more rebellious, more blind, and more unbelieving. This is tragic. So do not use "spooky" and "decoder ring" to rationalize your unbelief and rebellion against the New Testament revelation. Obviously you got nothing since all you can do is make personal attacks.Are you that afraid of words? I am sure Ringo and others would love to know how one can rebel against the New Testament. It is just a book and there are many versions of the book. So a couple things. What version of this book should we use and why?Why do you react so violently and emotionally to the fact people don't believe your mumbo-jumbo? As Jar likes to say this is just an interpretation of the bible by your particular group in the club christianity. I am quite sure there are members of the club christianity that dont follow your beliefs in this. Does that make them not christian? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
See the above rant.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
All your rant did was berate me for asking the question. Here it is again: How is the Old Testament not an example of ongoing renewal? See the above rant. If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Not only did jaywill fail to address the question, his rant was filled with examples of the classic carny con tactic of trying to misdirect attention by taking verses out of context in the hope that no one will notice that there is actually no support for the Christianity he tries to market.
The "Born again" "I been born again, regenerated, purified and cleansed in Christ's redemption" and so "I can be trusted to tell you what the words that were actually written really mean" seems little but the carny barkers shpiel. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
As I see it the subject is the born again teaching of John 3 and the support one can find for it especially in the New Testament. How the Old Testament was or was not an example of ongoing renwal is not the subject of this thread.
I didn't say the OT did or did not contain teaching of ongoing renwal. Nicodemus came to Jesus looking for some new teaching. Jesus told him that his need was not a new teaching but a NEW BIRTH. You skeptics can encourage each other and form your own amen corner all you want. Fallen man is "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18). Fallen man is not just estranged from knowing about God. He is estranged from the very life of God. He needs to have God as divine life born into his innermost being. I expect the response to this post to be someone's attempt to say that Paul's letter to the Ephesians has nothing to do with John chapter 3. And of course they would be dead wrong. It doesn't matter how agnostics and atheists poster themselves in thier attempt to re-sculpt the teaching of the New Testament to reflect something less radical and more benigh, permitting fallen man's being "alienated from the life of God" to retain some dignity, to persist in such alienation. The teaching of Christ to this very good and upstanding member of Jewish society (as his name Nicodemus implies "victor of the people") was that he must be born again. It was a must.
"Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born anew" (John 16:7 RcV ) This is radical in every sense of the word. It goes to the root of man's problem. He does not need a new and better TEACHING. He needs a new birth carried out by the Spirit of God. Witness Lee & Watchman Nee teach regeneration Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
So, what the heck does it mean to be 'born again', and where did the notion originate that such a thing were the beginning moment of the Christian life? It means to no longer be "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) Instead of being estranged and alienated from God as a living Person one comes into a union with God which is a birth. The Spirit of God joins to the human spirit and the two become one mingled spirit:
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) Before the born again experience, there was the human spirit in a comatose and deadened condition because of sin. And there was the Holy Spirit who is God Himself. In regeneration, in being born again the Holy Spirit and the comatose and deadened human spirit unite to be "one spirit". They become mingled.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) The translators of version are accurate to provide a capital S for the Holy Spirit and a small s for the human spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that is the cause of the human spirit to be born again.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit [God's Spirit] is spirit [the human spirit]" The birth takes place by the joining and uniting of the Spirit of God with the comatose, deadened and damaged human spirit:
"He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) In this translation it is difficult for the translators to know if they should use a small s or a capital s. As in other places in the New Testament where it speaks of the JOINED and MINGLED human spirit with the Holy Spirit. They decided to go with the small s. But the fact is Paul is teaching that the one joined to Jesus Christ is so because the Holy Spirit, the Third of the Triune God has become one spirit with the regenerated human spirit. Therefore 1 Corinthians 6:17 is support for the teaching of John 3. Another New Testament support for John 3's born again, born of the Spirit is in Romans 8:
"The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God" (ROmans 8:16) The Spirit Himself being of course God Himself as the Holy Spirit. to the Christian audience, Paul reminds them that within their being there is a co-witnessing going on. The Spirit Himself is witnessing along with the regenerated human spirit of the Christian recipients of Paul's letter. This witnessing within them assures them that they are children of God. They are in a divine family. This deep inner witnessing is deeper and more real than any intellectual argument. The world cannot give this experience and the world cannot take this experience away. The Spirit bears witness jointly, in a united and mingled way with the humam spirit that we, the believers in Christ, have a deep intimate "organic" union with God. The skeptical unbeliever may scoff. The atheist may jeer and accuse. But this is not elitism. And it is not an experience that is not available to anyone who is willing to receive Christ. As many as RECEIVED HIM ..."
" But as many as RECEIVED Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12,13 my emphasis ) When a man receives the resurrected and living Jesus Christ into his heart he is begotten of God. He receives something that he could not get because his parents may have had it. He receives something he could not get just by the excercise of his fallen will power. Not even could he obtain it by the excercise of the good will power created in the original unfallen man. The new birth is of God. It is simultaneous with opening one's being to receive a living Person. He is an unusual Person, no doubt. But He is a real and living Person in resurrection and made available in a form in which He can enter into the innermost part of our beings. When He enters for the first time there is a new birth, a spiritual birth. And the Holy Spirit bears witness within with the reborn human spirit to something which the world cannot give or take away. The receiving has become one of the children of God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sorry but once again you are simply taking quotes totally out of context to misrepresent what was actually written.
Ephesians 4 is actually a great condemnation of the Christianity you try to market. Paul is speaking there about doing, behavior, nothing about fallen man, the term does not even appear in Ephesians 4. Do you actually think that we have not read the Bible? Jesus was a Jew, speaking to a Jew, in the context of Judaism. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
There simply seems to be nothing overly special or procedural about what Jesus is saying. In fact, most of what he says to Nicodemus is just gibberish. The author of John has a predicament. The Jewish scripture makes all the promises to Abraham's get, but Christians weren't all former Jews by any stretch. He needs to change what counts as a seed of Abraham. It is not your physical heritage that matters, but your spiritual one. So he shapes things a little/lot - and suggests that only those that come from heaven can return there. Therefore, though you have a physical body that came from earth, you have a spiritual part that can be 'born' in the light of heaven. Abraham's seed is all those that are born from heaven. The bit about Nicodemus being confused is clearly a narrative crutch for John to express his views which I believe may have been resolving the problem of God's chosen people, and the Gentiles that came to follow Christ. Especially since this conversation is probably less confusing in the Aramaic it was presumably in. Strangely 'anōthen' is almost always translated as 'from heaven' or 'from the beginning' rather than 'again'. The only reason to use again is because of the context of Nicodemus' reply - but this relies on Nicodemus and Jesus using Greek in their discourse which is, of course, ridiculous. In John 3 it is translated as both
John 3:31 writes: He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. There simply seems to be nothing overly special or procedural about what Jesus is saying. OF course not, Jesus was the founding figure of a religion not a science! It's all about subtly suggesting things and letting the reader connect the dots. As you can tell from this thread and a casual look around the world that there are almost as many ways to connect the dots as there are people to connect them: hence the perceived need for a strong centralised church. The broad strokes are easily discerned though: The notion is that there are two parts to a person, a body and a spirit. The body is born of earth.The soul, made of wind/gods breath/etc which may choose to be born of heaven. The procedure for doing this is to hear testimony of the son of Man and to believe it. If you don't believe it then you're evil and you're going to piss God off and clearly you lack the necessary wit and sophistication to perceive the Emperor's fine pantaloons.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
You're the one who brought it up as if it supported your position.
How the Old Testament was or was not an example of ongoing renwal is not the subject of this thread. jaywill writes:
Jesus told him that he didn't need a new teaching, that as a Jewish leader, he ought to already know what being born again meant.
Nicodemus came to Jesus looking for some new teaching. Jesus told him that his need was not a new teaching but a NEW BIRTH. jaywill writes:
The question isn't whether we need to be reborn into the "life of God". It's how many times. Fallen man is not just estranged from knowing about God. He is estranged from the very life of God. He needs to have God as divine life born into his innermost being. Paul's letter to the Ephesians confirms that their conversion to Christianity wasn't a magic bullet that killed their old ways for all time. They needed repeated reminders just like those given by the Old Testament prophets. If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Sorry but once again you are simply taking quotes totally out of context to misrepresent what was actually written. Ephesians 4 is actually a great condemnation of the Christianity you try to market. Paul is speaking there about doing, behavior, nothing about fallen man, the term does not even appear in Ephesians 4. Do you actually think that we have not read the Bible? Jesus was a Jew, speaking to a Jew, in the context of Judaism. This criticism seeks to minimize the teaching "you must be born again" by insisting that Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews. John writes in the prologue of his Gospel:
"He [the Logos] was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name ... who were begotten ... of God." (See John 1:10-13) The context is about God becoming a man and coming into the world which came into being through Him. The world did not know Him. And His own race into which He was born and for whom He was a Messiah, did not receive Him. That means the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking, in general, did not believe in Him. John says "But as many as received Him ..." to indicate though there was a national rejection of Jesus Christ, individual Jews and others who were not "His own" did receive Him. And to them God gave the authirity to become children of God for they were begotten of God. So the teaching on being born again is to whosoever would believe in the Son of God (John 3:16) Of course the book of Ephesians underscores the exact same manner. Whosoever partakes of Christ is no longer a stranger and alien to the promises made by God to Israel:
"But now in Christ Jesus you [Gentiles] who were once far off have become near in the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, He who has made both one and has broken down the middle wall of partition, the enmity, Abolishing in His flesh the law of the commandments in ordinances, that He might create the two [Jew and Gentile] into one new man, so making peace, And He might reconcile both in one Body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity by it. And coming, He announced peace as the gospel to you who were far off, and peace to those who were near, for through Him we both have access in one Spirit unto the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God. Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus being the chief cornerstone; In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 4:13-22) In the new covenant church those of Jew and of Gentile are created one new man. And those near to the Messiah (the Jews) and those formerly far off (Gentiles) both have access to the one Divine Father through one Holy Spirit. Furthermore the great dwelling place of God living in and growing in man as the habitation of God in spirit comes into being in this one Body. And this harmonizes completely with John's Gospel that those born of the Spirit, begotten of God, and the recipients of eternal life are all those who believed into the name of Jesus. As many as received Him (Jew or Gentile) were given the right to become children of God. Witness Lee & Watchman Nee teach regeneration Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yawn.
For those following along, please note the ellipsis. Whenever you see someone quoting using ellipsis, be suspicious, check their sources in context. Also watch out for the slight of hand, the change of subject and attempt to play the old "The Bible interprets the Bible" con. If you follow back, we were discussing Ephesians and how jaywill was taking quotes from Ephesians out of context. Note that now jaywill is trying to do the same thing by taking quotes from John out of context in the hope that no one will notice he has changed the topic from Ephesians. So let's look at Ephesian 4.
quote:Please read all of Ephesians 4. It's not talking about some magic getting born again crap, it's talking about day to day living, starting over every day, every minute, trying to live with your neighbor, look at what YOU do honestly, being kind, forgiving, helpful, trustworthy, truthful, everyday basic stuff. It's no magic bullet, it is calling you to do work. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Furthermore the great dwelling place of God living in and growing in man as the habitation of God in spirit comes into being in this one Body. I figured this one might grab your attention, its good to have a master teacher back. As far as Jar and Ringo are concerned, we both know the natural man recieves not the things of the Spirit, the are spiritually undecernable. What else is new, eh. Good luck with attempting to explain spiritual things to base natural persons Dawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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