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Author Topic:   Peppered Moths and Natural Selection
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 73 of 350 (261809)
11-21-2005 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Nuggin
11-21-2005 4:52 AM


Re: Evolution means...
Indeed anyone with any familiarity with the literature would realise that given the common definition of evolution as a change in allele frequency in a population over generations any example of natural selection operating to shift allele frequencies is an example of evolution. It is the anti-evolutionary side which primarily seeks to ambiguate the definition of evolution and make it synonymous with speciation or higher level character changes.
TTFN,
WK
This message has been edited by Wounded King, 11-21-2005 10:52 AM

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 90 of 350 (261896)
11-21-2005 10:58 AM


Warning, un-constructive off-topic comment.
Wow, this page is a bit of an admin-athon.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 143 of 350 (347556)
09-08-2006 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by MartinV
09-08-2006 12:48 PM


Re: Another antidarwinistic hypothesis for industrial melanism
Because we know, that some locusts (grasshopers) as Oeddipoda caerulescens or Oedipoda germanica change their colour on on wings during larval stage through vision channels (Suchantke"Metamorphosen in Insektenreich".
Could you explain somewhat more fully what you mean here? Alternatively could you provide a more accessible reference since I don't seem to be able to find "Metamorphosen im Insektenreich" except on e-bay and Amazon in germany. I can't find anything by Suchantke on pubmed either.
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 142 by MartinV, posted 09-08-2006 12:48 PM MartinV has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 220 of 350 (355143)
10-08-2006 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by MartinV
10-08-2006 5:51 AM


Re: More Ignorance.
Mutations work on a basis of what is already there, both in terms of traits, molecular pathways and genetic sequences.
The non-melanic form of Biston betularia still have black pigmentation, supposedly as part of their crypsis for lichen. Therefore all that is needed is an expansion of this trait. This is clearly distinct from the generation of a novel trait for a completely distinct colour pigment. Since it is easier to get to a completely black moth from a partially black moth than it is to generate a novel colour pigment that mutation is likely to happen more frequently.
It may well be that more colourful pigments have arisen and been lost from the peppered moth species, but in the absence of anyone having ever observed them this hypothesis is pure fancy.
TTFN,
WK
Edited by Wounded King, : Corrected typo

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 221 of 350 (355144)
10-08-2006 8:00 AM


I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this parrallel example before but some species of pocket mice seem to show a similar normal/melanic form of crypsis in line with their natural habitats on normal or dark volcanic rocks (Nachman et al., 2003). They find the genetic basis for the melanic form in one population associated with mutaions in the melanocortin receptor-1 gene but find a distinct basis for melanism in another poulation showing that while the trait is evolved in a parallel fashion its genetic basis is distinct.
Surely if the basis for such traits were pre-determined they would arise in the same way amongst such closely related populations.
TTFN,
WK
Edited by Wounded King, : typographical error

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 225 of 350 (355397)
10-09-2006 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by MartinV
10-09-2006 12:55 PM


I do not understand if Armendaris dark phenotype aroused via using different melanic protein as Pinacate melanics?
Melanic protein is a vague term, there are a number of distinct elements to the generation of melanic colouring, as the article says there are ~80 genes which have been found to have a role in coat colouration. The gene in which the mutations were identified in this paper were not melanic proteins in the sense of being part of a pigment.
Or there is only different "cascade" of regulatory path via which the same melanic protein is activated and which in Armendaris population we did not indentify yet?
This seems the most likely hypothesis since there are a number of levels within such a cascade at which a mutation could act.
The article claims are backed by surprisingly old sources (8,9,10 are all before 1948) that owls see colors
You now seem to be arguing based on the rather random premise that the paper claims that owls see colour, in the sense of RGB presumably given your discourse on rod and cones. The context and the phenotypes makes it clear that the 'colours' being descriminated are the white/black dark/light coat 'colours' which would pose no barrier to descrimination for an animal with monochromatic sight and therefore seems entirely consistent with the cited earlier research. Indeed an 'abundance' of cells 'very sensitive to light and movement' would seem exactly the sort of vision which would select for shades of light or dark relative to the background on which the prey was resting/moving.
Why are ~70 year old experiments surprisingly old? Your own references have frequently been before that time. Why shouldn't experimentalists in the 1930's-40's have been capable of testing for visual accuity of owls for mice? It isn't like they are using it as a reference for genetic sequencing. None of the subsequent research you cite suggests anything contradicting Dice et al.'s research. A (slightly) more recent paper shows similar descriminatory abilities for the detection of white and agouti mice on a variety of backgrounds (Kaufman, 1974).
It would be interesting to know.
It certainly would, the review article on insect melanism which was referenced by Belfry should give you some idea of some of the research being done in that field.
Now we do not know where peppered moths rest, if there is any connection between available lichen resting places and oscillation of typica population and even we do not know genetics behind peppered moth melanic phenomenon. Yet we are persuaded same as in your link that oscillation of peppered moths is due bird predation.
Those who are persuaded are persuaded by the available evidence, it may be that if an environmental change occurs which affects the prevalence of lichen then you would see an effect on the population. That in no way means that the evidence doesn't suggest that in the absence of any such change predation by birds acts to favour melanic forms in more polluted areas and the lighter forms in areas with cleaner air. No one has said that bird predation is the only environmental factor acting to drive selection on these moths, obvioulsy the nature and prevalence of lichens as a substrate for rest would also be important if lichen like crypsis is supposed to be benefiting them.
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 224 by MartinV, posted 10-09-2006 12:55 PM MartinV has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 234 of 350 (356345)
10-13-2006 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by MartinV
10-13-2006 1:12 PM


Re: the question is: what is your theory?
Due to ultraviolet visions of birds there is no crypsis of pepperd moths at all
Absolutely nothing to suggst this is true and you have even already discussed the Majerus research which provides a substantial basis for it being false.
2)
Migration. Some silk moths are able to detect the scent of the females from 10 to 20 km (6 to 12 miles) or more away. So I do not see any obstacle to explanation that if in case of mating they can fly so large distances why they should not fly away from unfavourable polluted areas.
This doesn't explain anything unless you are positing a much more substantial difference between the two forms than simply melanism.
3)
Melanic alleles are dominant. I do not unterestand how is it possible, that if melanic forms constituted 98% of population in industrial areas why did not they constitute 100% say next 5 years later? Do homozygous typica males mate only homozygous typica females? Do not imigrate typica from unpolluted area?
This isn't an explanation it is an objection.
4)
Selective predation of bats which are leading predators of moths. Acording some latest researches in India they can detect UV very well too. It plays in cards of neodarwinistic selection too but if it is the case all Kettlewell and subsequent researches and hypothesis were wrong from the beginning.
This is also not an alternative explanation but a mere objection.
The only 'explanation' actually resembling an explanation is...
So the rise of melanic forms is caused by mutation that automaticaly accomodated wings colors and patterns to prevalent colors of environment without any neodarwinian reason.
Which explains absolutely nothing. It just posits a completely hypothetical mechanism of environmental feedback leading to a directed mutation with absolutely no purpose, given that you seem to feel melanism is essentially neutral with respect to fitness.
Do you think there is any tenable mechanism to mediate this effect? I might buy it if you said it wasn't genetic at all but that melanism was an epigenetic effect of the pollution but as is stands your proposal is just a fairytale.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 259 of 350 (362556)
11-08-2006 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by JohnnyHads
11-08-2006 2:16 AM


Re: So wait a minute here
You're not getting the point.
TTFN,
WK
Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 282 of 350 (612414)
04-15-2011 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by JonF
04-14-2011 8:05 PM


Re: one mutation from a single ancestor causes increased melanism,
Damn, I can't believe it still isn't clear what the actual mutation is given how studied a phenomenon the melanism is, but at least the field has been radically narrowed down.
TTFN,
WK

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