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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 466 of 657 (611609)
04-09-2011 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by Buzsaw
04-09-2011 9:00 AM


Misrepresentation
Buzsaw writes:
Hi Ludwik. Welcome to EvC. We're honored to have members of your academic stature aboard. I hope you will find time to continue with us.
Have you read the whole thread objectively? Personally I think you need to become objectively (I say objectively) aware of the physical evidence cited in this thread; all of it corroboratively.
It doesn't take much evidence to convince secularists of, say, multi-verses and abiogenesis. On the other hand no amount of evidence will ever convince avowed secularists of anything involving the existence of the Biblical god, Jehovah.
Buz, you continue to misrepresent the facts.
First, secularism is totally irrelevant to this thread and as you well know it is not just secularists that point out that you have presented NO evidence in this thread supportive of any exodus.
If there is. perhaps you can provide a link to a post that actually has some evidence.
Edited by jar, : ask for links

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 467 of 657 (611616)
04-09-2011 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by Buzsaw
04-09-2011 9:00 AM


Re: Objective Observation
quote:
Have you read the whole thread objectively? Personally I think you need to become objectively (I say objectively) aware of the physical evidence cited in this thread; all of it corroboratively.
I'd guess that he's aware of the fact that there is not even one piece of physical evidence that is even likely to have anything to do with the Exodus. And any objective person would agree.
One more thing Buz, can you drop the childish slanders ? You couldn't come up with any decent evidence and that's a fact. Accept it like a man.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 468 of 657 (611618)
04-09-2011 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by Buzsaw
04-09-2011 9:00 AM


Re: Objective Observation
Buzsaw writes:
Personally I think you need to become objectively (I say objectively) aware of the physical evidence cited in this thread; all of it corroboratively.
Claiming that nobody is objective but you is the antithesis of objectivity.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

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ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 469 of 657 (611625)
04-09-2011 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by Buzsaw
03-05-2011 6:21 PM


Re: Where are the bodies?
Buzsaw writes:
hERICtic writes:
I have read this thread since the beginning, but perhaps I missed this crucial point.
The numbers of Israelites must have been close to at least three million; men, women and children.
If the average lifespan was around 40 years and they wandered the desert for 40 years...then nearly everyone who started the journey would have died in the desert.
Since the enviroment is ideal for preservation...I would assume if the exodus occured there should be plenty of remains to be found.
According to the record, due to their unbelief and murmuring, only the young survived to go into the promised land, the rest all dying in the wilderness and particularly, Kadesh Barnea. Moses, in fact, climbed the mountain on which he expired and died, a healthy man, at the age of 120. Many were likely aged but healthy when they exited Egypt. They would have died off in the wilderness or at Kadesh.
Yes, Buz. We get that, Buz. You're missing the point spectacularly.
You say so yourself: according to the Bible, all the Isrealites who fled Egypt died in the desert before entering Canan. The question is, where are all their remains? That's millions of people dying in a relatively small geographic area, in a climate well-suited to preserving human remains. Never mind all the pottery, animal bones, tools, and other items that would have to be left behind as evidence of their presence. This area has been explored substantialy by archeologists. Where are any of the bones of those millions of Isrealites?

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it. - John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 470 of 657 (611626)
04-09-2011 2:16 PM


Post Purpose
My last message was a welcoming and advocation to Ludwig, not to rehash what's been covered in the thread.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by ringo, posted 04-09-2011 2:59 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 472 by Admin, posted 04-09-2011 9:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 471 of 657 (611630)
04-09-2011 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Buzsaw
04-09-2011 2:16 PM


Re: Post Purpose
Buzsaw writes:
My last message was a welcoming and advocation to Ludwig, not to rehash what's been covered in the thread.
If you don't want to rehash what's already been covered in the thread, don't rehash the same false accusations that you've been making throughout the thread,.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 472 of 657 (611683)
04-09-2011 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Buzsaw
04-09-2011 2:16 PM


Re: Post Purpose
Hi Buz,
I requested that you collect your evidence into a single post because you kept claiming you had described a lot of evidence. To repeat this claim yet again while continuing to ignore my request is not very good form.
Your pattern has become this: post evidence that no one accepts and everyone questions, then stop responding to arguments and just claim you've already posted the evidence. The strong possibility that your Coffee House thread proposal would follow a similar course is a good part of the reason AdminPD declined to promote it.
Please refrain from posting to this thread again unless it is to describe your evidence.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Buzsaw, posted 04-09-2011 2:16 PM Buzsaw has not replied

MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 473 of 657 (611896)
04-12-2011 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
09-10-2010 12:07 AM


Roads down to the Gulf of Aqaba
Buzsaw writes:
jar writes:
Buzsaw writes:
No Buldozers, blasting powder, and earthmovers to build a coastal highway through the mountainous terrain North and South of Nuweiba Beach, Jar. Who's more ignorant, Jar, apprised region savvy Wyatt audiences or Jar?
Good grief Buz. If the Romans could do anything at all, they could and did build roads. Everywhere. Ethiopia and Yemen were major sources for some spices and also gold.
Have a look, Jar, at the West Gulf Of Aqaba topography. And you think a coastal highway would or could have gone through that in ancient days?
Actually, the Via Nova Traiana ran 350 km. from Southern Syria, through the provincial capital of Arabia Felix at Bostra, past Petra to Aila on the Gulf of Aqaba.
In the 4th century, the Roman legion, Legio X Fretensis was stationed here.
By the way Buz, the Gulf of Aqaba is pictured on the right hand side of the image you linked to. It is the right-hand gulf of the Red Sea which , together with the left-hand Gulf of Suez, brackets the Sinai peninsula.
Aila is at the apex of the Gulf of Aqaba.
Your image is a bit misleading since it shows mostly the mountainous tip of the Sinai.
Cheers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 12:07 AM Buzsaw has not replied

MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 474 of 657 (611898)
04-12-2011 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Buzsaw
09-11-2010 7:58 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Buzsaw writes:
Bluescat writes:
Which could still be the Sinai Peninsula, since the Sinai peninsula was part of Midian. Why would Pharoah's army chase them into the Sinai? It makes more sense that they were trapped on the west arm of the Red Sea rather than the East arm, since the area would still be in Egypt not Midian.
Please cite an ancient map showing the Sinai Peninsula as the land of Midian.
Hi again Buz,
The Midianites were nomads too. As such their 'lands' may have been wherever they pastured their herds. According to what I have read some Biblical scholars see the Midianites as a group of tribes with a common culture rather than as a kingdom with set borders.
Some scholars put Midian within Sinai, others place it across Sinai and to the East of it. Currently it's a matter open to debate.

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MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 475 of 657 (611902)
04-12-2011 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Buzsaw
09-11-2010 9:49 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Buzsaw writes:
PaulK writes:
Not really. We don't even know if there was a particular part that Jethro could claim as his own. Herders in that time and place tended to be nomadic. And as has been pointed out you,r own source indicates that the borders of Midian were different then - and you still have not produced one piece of evidence that Mt. Sinai itself was in Midian.
According to Numbers 31:8 and 10 there were kings and citys in the land of Midian. There came a time when Moses warred against these kings and their cities by Jehovah's command.
This being the case, not all were nomadic shepherds. There were definable areas of the land.
LOL. Certainly, Paul, by now, I don't expect some of you members to acknowledge any cited evidence for anything ever supported by evidence relative to the Exodus.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian with the rest of their slain: Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. ........
10 And all their cities in the places wherein they dwelt, and all their encampments, they burnt with fire.
PaulK writes:
There's no mention of any wadi or valley to cause delays. Delays on the way wouldn't matter, so that isn't significant at all. The fact is that there is no mention of the Israelites being trapped by the terrain, the Egyptians should have been faster and more mobile and there is some support from the text for the idea. And that is sufficient for the fear among the Israelites that is mentioned. (And given the disparity in numbers, and the benefit of rough terrain to the defenders I would suggest that even that fits with open flat country where the Egyptians could make most use of their chariots).
In Exodus 14:1-4 Jehovah instructs Moses into a region where they will be entrapped by the wilderness and the sea, leaving no escape route.
Tell the sons of Israel to turn back and camp before Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea; you shall camp in front of Baal-zephon, opposite it, by the sea. "For Pharaoh will say of the sons of Israel, ‘They are wandering aimlessly in the land; the wilderness has shut them in.’ "Thus I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord." And they did so."
Exodus 14:1-4
Hi Buz,
Just a little heads up mate. You cite the Bible as your evidence.
The point is that this topic is about substantiating the Biblical Exodus story.
Logically, you really can't cite the Bible as evidence for itself - or any of its stories.
The point here is to discuss any extra-Biblical evidence which might corroborate the Exodus.
Has anyone here read about the supposed similarities between the Exodus story and the Hyksos expulsion?
Hyksos is apparently just another Egyptian term for 'Asiatic'.
Could the Israelites have been the Hyksos? Could they have been one of many groups of people settled in Egypt during a period of foreign occupation?
The Egyptians saw the Hyksos as foreign occupiers and thus their leaving of Egypt interpreted was later told of as an 'expulsion', giving it the historical resonance of a victory for the Egyptians.
The Israelites (or as the Egyptians migt have called them and other Asiatic 'aliens' - the 'Hyksos') would in turn have depicted it as a flight from persecution rather than an expulsion. Thus their 'escape' would then take on the dimensions of their own 'victory'?
Just some thoughts.
Cheers

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 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2010 9:49 PM Buzsaw has not replied

MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 476 of 657 (612032)
04-12-2011 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Buzsaw
01-04-2011 10:18 AM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
Buzsaw writes:
Huntard writes:
Buzsaw writes:
After over three millenniums, what lamb bones left on the ground would you expect to find? Why should pottery be found? left by a relative fast moving troop of people in flight. What should you expect to find from nomads constantly on the move?
From 1 to 2 million people on the move? A lot of evidence, that's what I'd expect.
Other factors regarding traces: They had one food; manna from the sky which lasted 24 hours for each serving. No need for food production or preservation etc. No plows or other implements were needed. Jewish law required the burial of human waste etc.
What evidence would you expect? I cited corroborating evidence in the region relating to the beach crossing. You all simply waived them all off, repeating the lie that I've provided no evidence.
That's the way it goes with you people who have a vested interest in non-accountability to a higher power.
Hello again Buz,
I'm a Catholic myself, so I don't have a "...vested interest in non-accountability to a higher power." In fact I believe in personal accountability to God.
That out of the way, your own statement underscores your lack of evidence.
You rightly stated that human waste had to be buried? Waste for nearly 2 million people is no little thing. Burial pits should literally be strewed all along their route. Also fire pits would have been a necessity - especially at night. Temperature drops quickly in that part of the world when the sun sets. In addition, despite having only mana to eat the Israelites, like any other people, must have had garbage - i.e. material no longer useful to them no? Broken pots, old cloth, broken tools or even lost items dropped along the way like coins (especially helpful in dating the period), carvings, bones of dead animals (they had flocks remember?), small implements.....
And all this would have to be in rather great quantities given the supposedly enormous size of the Israelite host.
Has anything like that been found along any of the proposed march routes?
If not then one must ask why.
Several possibilities present themselves:
1. the Exodus is ot historical and just an illustrative, allegorical story.
2.) the routes often touted do not describe the actual route taken.
3.) the numbers of the Israelites described in the Bible are typical ancient over-indulgences of the facts. The number of Israelites was much smaller.
4.) Perhaps the Israelites did not travel in one enormous group but rather in several smaller groups along different routes? This is a tactic often taken by large groups of nomadic peoples so that no one large host consumes the available forage in one area. Mongols and other steppe peoples tended to do this a lot when moving their enormous hordes about the steppes.
Note that even if the Israelites ate only mana, they had to have an enormous amount of animal stock - asses, mules, horses, camels, cattle, sheep, goats etc. These definitely could not live on mana.
However each of the alternatives above (except 1 of course) presents the same problems. Lack of physical trace evidence as I and others have already pointed out.
I would personally love it if such physical evidence were found. Alas such evidence does not currently exist.
Wyatt & cos. 'evidence' is rather subjective and certainly open to multiple other interpretations. Nor does his grasp of physical geography or the mechanics of erosion jive with the evidence he offers.

This message is a reply to:
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MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 477 of 657 (612042)
04-12-2011 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Buzsaw
01-04-2011 6:40 PM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
Buzsaw writes:
ringo writes:
We'd expect to find remnants of the utensils they used, the mills, the mortars, the pans, etc.
Why? These things went with them where ever they went. There's no reason most of that would have lasted 40 years or so. These things were hard to come by and needful.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buz,
I belong to a historical recreation group (SCA). If you've ever ground grain to make flour as I have then you would certainly realise that no mill stone, bowl or other utensil is going to last 40 years. The Israelites may have had divine guidance and largess gifted to them, but there is no scriptural evidence they were gifted with high-tech artifacts that would stand 40 years+ wear and tear (yes that's 40 years and MORE. unless you are stating the Israelites took brand new implements with them for their journey?).

This message is a reply to:
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MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 478 of 657 (612043)
04-12-2011 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Buzsaw
01-04-2011 6:59 PM


Re: Far Fetched Poop Holes
Buzsaw writes:
Likely there were holes or small trenches for the purpose downwind which were covered with layers of dirt until full.
Over the millenia, erosion etc would have left no trace. This is how the Exodus debate has been since the git go, with silly stuff like this after which the skeptics allege they've falsified the evidence. LOL. This is a good example of how futile it is to debate Bibliofobics on this topic.
Buz,
Archaeology and simple, basic archaeological principles aren't silly.
If we can still find middens today from that era or older, why shouldn't we expect to find middens left by an enormous concentration of people?
Middens aren't latrines by the way. They are piles of refuse and can contain anything from shucked oyster shells to broken artifacts and the other expected detritus of any group of people concentrated in one area.
Erosion would account for the dispersal of some middens assuredly, but at least a great many more would survive even in a slightly dispersed arrangement. The sheer volume of waste of a couple of million people are astounding. It isn't just modern society that has rubbish dumps.
Cheers

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 479 of 657 (612045)
04-12-2011 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by MiguelG
04-12-2011 8:02 PM


hidden middens
MiguelG writes:
If we can still find middens today from that era or older, why shouldn't we expect to find middens left by an enormous concentration of people?
Middens aren't latrines by the way. They are piles of refuse and can contain anything from shucked oyster shells to broken artifacts and the other expected detritus of any group of people concentrated in one area.
In fact middens are a favorite because they tell so much about a peoples.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by MiguelG, posted 04-12-2011 8:02 PM MiguelG has not replied

MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 480 of 657 (612053)
04-12-2011 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Buzsaw
01-04-2011 7:18 PM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
Buzsaw writes:
huntard writes:
Evidence that the Jews were their. Their poop, their dead, their tools, their camp-sites. To name a few.
What sort of tools would you have expected them to leave behind or loose?
Shards of pottery, small loseable items like coins, beads (parts of necklaces), old leather thongs (leather would dry but not rot in such an environment), broken wooden hafts of tools, broken metallic objects of copper, bronze or iron, small musical instruments like flutes (wood, bone etc.), and best of all graves complete with grave goods.
Let's not forget that in forty years there are bound to have been a good many deaths amongst a group of 2 million people. Graves and grave goods should be fairly common place.
Buzsaw writes:
The only Native American camp sites that remain with evidence after less time were the ones where they lived for long periods of time. There have been camp sites all over the continent over the millenia. They had more primitive tools than the Israelites would have had. Thus broken ones etc show up at village sites. Not so with the Jews.
How many of those Native American camp sites boasted a population of 2 million people? Go ahead and check and get back to me with the largest population estimate for such a camp site.
The only site in the AMericas that even approached such numbers was probably Tenochitlan - the site of CITY of a stone-fashioning, metal smelting, advanced mathematics capable peoples.
A bit different from a North American 'camp site' wouldn't you say?
Buzsaw writes:
Their dead? How many Native American buried dead would you expect to find which would be over three thousand years old?
We get back to numbers again. How can you compare groups of people numbering in the hundreds to a group purported to number 2 million??
The odds of artifacts and graves being found increase exponentially with increase in population and length of stay in a particular area. That's why ancient cities numbereing tens of thousands of people or more yield more finds than occassional camp sites of a few hundred nomadic hunter/gatherers.
Buzsaw writes:
The people were very strong and healthy after years of hard labor in Egypt and having the perfect diet by Jehovah's providence. Relatively few would have died in the wilderness.
Where does it say that in the Bible please? Doesn't it state that the generation that left Egypt would not see the Promised Land?
Buzsaw writes:
According to the Biblical record they still lived relatively long lives in those days. Moses lived 120 years. He was healthy when he died, walking to the mountain where he was to die, according to the record.
True, however there is no indication that ordinary people rather than those of the lines of the Prophets or Kings lived anywhere near the same amount. In fact, the very idea that the Bible singles out such individuals and notes their excessively long lifespans implies that these were not ordinary people but the special friends of God.
Or would you dispute that?

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