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Author Topic:   Going to hell? Fringe lunatics
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 46 of 56 (611654)
04-09-2011 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
04-09-2011 6:02 PM


Re: Inspiration is not Dictation
jar writes:
Even inspired to write fiction.
Inspired by God .. to write fiction.
I think I'll stick to waiting for purpledawn to clarify her position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 04-09-2011 6:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 48 by jar, posted 04-09-2011 6:22 PM iano has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 47 of 56 (611656)
04-09-2011 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by iano
04-09-2011 6:18 PM


Re: Inspiration is not Dictation
iano writes:
jar writes:
Even inspired to write fiction.
Inspired by God .. to write fiction.
sure, why not?
did the parable of the prodigal son actually happen, or did jesus use a fictional story to illustrate a greater truth?

אָרַח

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 Message 46 by iano, posted 04-09-2011 6:18 PM iano has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 56 (611657)
04-09-2011 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by iano
04-09-2011 6:18 PM


Re: Inspiration is not Dictation
iano writes:
jar writes:
Even inspired to write fiction.
Inspired by God .. to write fiction.
I think I'll stick to waiting for purpledawn to clarify her position.
Of course to write fiction, folk tales, mythology. The Garden of Eden myth, the Genealogies, Flood myths, Creation myths, the Exodus saga, the Conquest of Canaan myths, Ruth, ...

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 49 of 56 (611659)
04-09-2011 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by iano
04-09-2011 2:31 PM


Re: Inspiration is not Dictation
quote:
Else they weren't inspired in the bits where they disagree.
Sure they were. Inspiration isn't exact and can come from many directions besides God.
There are various theories of inspiration concerning the Bible, so we probably aren't going to agree. I go with natural inspiration.
God wasn't the only influence on the writers. When a writer wants us to know what God said, they will say so.
Like I asked in Message 39: Would I be correct in claiming that God said Jesus was possessed by Beelzebub? (Mark 3:22)
Yes the writers were even inspired to write fiction and poetry. Sometimes fictional stories are an easy way to get a lesson across.
You're pulling us away from the point of the topic, which is hell.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 50 of 56 (611664)
04-09-2011 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by iano
04-09-2011 9:37 AM


Iano writes:
If the inspiration is from God then wouldn't all the conclusions drawn by the inspired whilst under inspiration conform to God's view? For example:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 18:9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city. 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What practical difference God's view issued by dictation or inspiration?
We would agree that Paul was inspired by God to continue teaching in Corinth. It doesn't follow at all, unless one decides to impose their own view on what is written, that Paul would just be a conduit for God to speak through without involving Paul's own thoughts. It just means that Paul was gifted, and inspired, to preach to the Corinthians and as Paul would agree, to do so in spite of his human failings.
For example: Thirty years ago I believe I was led into a ministry of leading sing-alongs with seniors. I have been doing it ever since but as anyone who has heard me can well attest I don't do it perfectly.
I believe that the Biblical authors, were inspired to write down their experiences of God and that now we in turn are to allow ourselves to be inspired by what they wrote. We are to be inspired to reflect God's love and righteousness to the world, we are to learn from the mistakes that have been made by the various authors and the people they wrote about, we are to be led in all truth by God's Holy Spirit and the Bible is one of the gifts given us by God to do that. Will we do it perfectly? Not by a long shot.
I have been going through the book of Joshua. It is a blood curdling story about Joshua going from one town to another killing everyone in sight declaring that God is delivering them into their hands. Does that idea bear any resemblance whatsoever to what Jesus taught? We are to look at the story of Jonah and be inspired to sort out how he went so wrong and to draw parallels in our own lives, both as individuals and as societies so that we don't make the same mistakes.
I contend that if we try to turn the Bible into one long book of rules and other absolutes we are missing out on so much of what God wants to teach us. As I have said before, I don’t believe that the Bible is the 4th member of the Trinity. God has created us with free will and to treat the Bible as a book that would have us follow without question a set of laws negates our ability to follow God, as seen through the lens of the resurrected Jesus who we are told is the word of God. We are to follow out of love not fear.
The Bible chronicles the history and stories of God’s people. When looked at from a distance it tells the meta-narrative from creation to new creation and calls us to see where and how we fit into that story.
Edited by GDR, : typo

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by sac51495, posted 04-09-2011 7:29 PM GDR has replied

  
sac51495
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 51 of 56 (611670)
04-09-2011 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by GDR
04-09-2011 6:53 PM


GDR,
God has created us with free will and to treat the Bible as a book that would have us follow without question a set of laws negates our ability to follow God, as seen through the lens of the resurrected Jesus who we are told is the word of God. We are to follow out of love not fear.
As Jesus himself said,
"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:18-19

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 04-09-2011 6:53 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 04-09-2011 7:38 PM sac51495 has not replied
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 04-09-2011 8:18 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 52 of 56 (611671)
04-09-2011 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ICANT
04-08-2011 1:22 PM


ICANT writes:
All I know is that I have met the requirements that Jesus set down for me to receive eternal life. I do not know about anybody else.
I'm not questioning your faith or your love of God but in writing that you sound so much like the Pharisees. They believed if they just followed all the food laws, kept the Sabbath with all that entailed that they would be alright and that God would return, rebuild the temple and vindicate them. Jesus told them they had their model wrong.
I suggest that the model God wants us to follow is simply that of love, a love freely chosen, because love is where our heart is, not just so that we can be on the right side of God.
Once again I go back to Micah where we are told exactly what it is that God wants of us. We are to humbly love kindness and do justice. There is nothing in there about getting our theology right. The same message is echoed in Christ's parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25.
The road to hell is one freely chosen as well. It is the road we choose to travel when we are unwilling to accept love that supersedes our love of self. I suggest reading C S Lewis’ book The Great Divorce.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

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 Message 38 by ICANT, posted 04-08-2011 1:22 PM ICANT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 56 (611673)
04-09-2011 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by sac51495
04-09-2011 7:29 PM


sac51495 writes:
GDR,
God has created us with free will and to treat the Bible as a book that would have us follow without question a set of laws negates our ability to follow God, as seen through the lens of the resurrected Jesus who we are told is the word of God. We are to follow out of love not fear.
As Jesus himself said,
"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:18-19
I always find it funny when folk pull something like that out of context. It certainly diminishes and trivializes the Bible and does the author of Matthew a great disservice.
That is pulled out of a much longer passage where Jesus goes on to explain that it is your behavior, not belief even in Jesus, that is significant.
The rest of Matthew 5:
quote:
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by sac51495, posted 04-09-2011 7:29 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 54 of 56 (611675)
04-09-2011 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by sac51495
04-09-2011 7:29 PM


sac51495 writes:
As Jesus himself said,
"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:18-19
Sure, but let’s look at where he is going with this. He has just finished preaching The Beatitudes in which he describes the life that we are to lead now in anticipation of the time when God’s will, will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven, or at the time of new creation.
Just before the verse you quoted, Jesus said that he hadn’t come to abolish the law and the prophets but to fulfill them. This was a revolutionary message. It was new beginning and when you read the beatitudes you can see that the laws to which he is referring to aren’t about absolutes but are generalities such as blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, and blessed are the peacemakers. He then goes on to give a series of things not to do such as murder and things to do such as loving your enemy. But once again these things are encapsulated in what he says towards the end of the sermon when he says, In everything, do unto others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. In other words unselfish love fulfills every jot and tittle of the law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by sac51495, posted 04-09-2011 7:29 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 56 (611694)
04-10-2011 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rahvin
04-08-2011 12:45 PM


Faith and Works
The doctrine of salvation by faith has long supported the idea that anyone can get into Heaven regardless of past sins, that being the entire point.
Even more to the point, there is no Faith vs. Works. Faith is Works, and Works is Faith.
quote:
Matthew 7:21—23 (NRSV):
'Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?" Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers."
Hearers and Doers
Actually believing in Jesus, or even knowing of him, almost appears irrelevant:
quote:
Matthew 25:37—40 (NRSV):
Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?" And the king will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me."
Christian apologists like to try to combine the two doctrines using a variety of rationalizations.
And that's just the thing: there's nothing to combine; there aren't two 'doctrines', just one.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by purpledawn, posted 04-10-2011 9:05 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 56 of 56 (611707)
04-10-2011 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Jon
04-10-2011 1:59 AM


Re: Faith and Works
quote:
And that's just the thing: there's nothing to combine; there aren't two 'doctrines', just one.
When people cherry pick, they can come up with support for saying we are saved by faith alone or by works alone, or those who don't believe will go to hell.
In Message 1, Mike referenced Paul concerning faith only.
Romans 3:22-24 (New International Version)
22 This righteousness is given through faith in[a] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
But if we look early in Romans we see Paul's mention of behavior.
Romans 2:13 (NIV)
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Paul makes interesting arguments and taking one line without the rest of the argument can cause problems.
Paul's point is that faith includes turning from sin and obeying God. IOW, if someone tries to earn salvation by obeying the law without faith, they will fail. Also if anyone claims to have faith but willfully ignores God's law, they will also fail.
Paul's writings don't support faith only concerning salvation. BTW, the word for hell does not show up in Paul's writings.
So it is very easy for fringe elements to create support for their lunacy.
Edited by purpledawn, : Hit submit too soon.

This message is a reply to:
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