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Member Posts: 9475 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
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Author | Topic: Supernatural and undiscovered means of detection | |||||||||||||||||||||||
1.61803 Member (Idle past 1704 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Oh.. well I agree. I think it comes down how logical it is to believe something. If there is evidence then it is logical to believe it exist. If there is no evidence then it is still logical to believe it could exist. However given the extreme circumstance of the claim ...ie extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I, as many here am skeptical. I have never seen a ghost, nor has anyone I know, and all evidence I have seen or heard has been debunked. Hence I do not believe ghost exist. Einstien or Newton would of found a way to make contact by now. Having said that I never said that ghost "cant " exist. Just unlikely. imo
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GDR Member Posts: 6220 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.6 |
The November cover of "Scientific American" headlined the lead story in the that edition.
The headline was: HIDDEN WORLDS OF DARK MATTER - An Entire Universe may be Interwoven Silently With Our Own". IF this is true, then there is a whole universe out there that currently we are unable to perceive. Could that be construed as a supernatural universe?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17888 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Short answer. No.
Slightly longer answer. Don't be silly. Or, to explain in more detail, dark matter would just be a previously unknown part of nature. It's physical (it's within the subject matter of physics) and material (it has mass - that's how we know it's there). There doesn't seem to be any good reason to label it supernatural at all.
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GDR Member Posts: 6220 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.6 |
Mirriam-Webster's
Definition of SUPERNATURAL1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil 2a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit) It does fit the bill for the first part of the definition in that it is talking about something beyond the "visible observable universe". To go beyond that we are definitely into the speculative.
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4954 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
"Accept the possibility" is too strong, IMO, as it says that one is considering it. But there's no reason to consider it. Building from the evidence, there is no such thing. So, properly, the concept should be ignored so one does not inadvertently force the pattern to fit random phenomena.
If ghosts were to appear, defined by the evidence, then you have something. But until then it's a dangerous concept to the belief-forming structure because ghosts are disconnected from reality by definition. It is too filled with gaps in which the viewer might leak parts of himself into what he is viewing. Accepting the possibility of ghosts is like seriously considering whether a big sky daddy burnt a representation of a Renaissance depiction of an itinerant preacher who some claim claimed to be the son of the big sky daddy into a tortilla.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17888 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
quote: The article you are quoting says merely that it is a part of the visible universe that is not visible to us (and it is detectable in principle, so it is not absolutely invisible). Dark matter is HERE, not in some unspecified "elsewhere" beyond the visible universe. So your argument requires a strained reading of even your hand-picked (and not very good) definition. A reading that would be widely rejected because it is clearly absurd. All I can say is that if supernaturalists are reduced to such dictionary games, trying to claim that natural entities are supernatural to bolster their beliefs then supernaturalism is clearly irrational.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9475 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
GDR writes: Mirriam-Webster's Definition of SUPERNATURAL1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil 2a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit) It does fit the bill for the first part of the definition in that it is talking about something beyond the "visible observable universe". To go beyond that we are definitely into the speculative. I guess you can stretch visible and observable to mean anything if you think dark matter falls under supernatural Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Taq Member Posts: 10255 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
IF this is true, then there is a whole universe out there that currently we are unable to perceive. Could that be construed as a supernatural universe? So where do we draw the line? EM waves outside of the visible range can not be directly observed, so is your radio collecting signals from the supernatural? Is an x-ray image supernatural? If something has a predictable effect on the natural world and is potentially describable through some sort of scientific law then I would include it as natural, not supernatural. As of the moment, dark matter appears to have predictable effects on the natural world (e.g. gravitational lensing, rotation of galaxies) and seems conducive to being described by scientific laws.
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GDR Member Posts: 6220 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.6 |
Taq writes: If something has a predictable effect on the natural world and is potentially describable through some sort of scientific law then I would include it as natural, not supernatural. As of the moment, dark matter appears to have predictable effects on the natural world (e.g. gravitational lensing, rotation of galaxies) and seems conducive to being described by scientific laws. Here are some of the other statements in the magazine about the article.
quote: quote: quote:
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9475 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
GDR writes: Taq writes: If something has a predictable effect on the natural world and is potentially describable through some sort of scientific law then I would include it as natural, not supernatural. As of the moment, dark matter appears to have predictable effects on the natural world (e.g. gravitational lensing, rotation of galaxies) and seems conducive to being described by scientific laws. Here are some of the other statements in the magazine about the article.
quote: quote: quote: And what pray tell do any of these statements you quote have to do with anything. Maybe you should try explaining the point you are trying to make. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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GDR Member Posts: 6220 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.6 |
Theodoric writes: And what pray tell do any of these statements you quote have to do with anything. Maybe you should try explaining the point you are trying to make. Good question and I wish I had a really good answer. The OP more or less asked the question if we had arguments pro or con the supernatural. I found the article in SA interesting and it seems to me that what they are talking about in that article might be considered supernatural. The whole article of course was theoretical and proves nothing but it does provide a point of view. I'm not trying to make any particular claim.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9475 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
they are talking about in that article might be considered supernatural. How you get to supernatural from that article is a heck of a stretch. If that qualifies as supernatural, so do radio waves, xrays and anything else not visible to the human eye. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Rahvin Member (Idle past 171 days) Posts: 4046 Joined: |
So where do we draw the line? EM waves outside of the visible range can not be directly observed, so is your radio collecting signals from the supernatural? Is an x-ray image supernatural? If something has a predictable effect on the natural world and is potentially describable through some sort of scientific law then I would include it as natural, not supernatural. As of the moment, dark matter appears to have predictable effects on the natural world (e.g. gravitational lensing, rotation of galaxies) and seems conducive to being described by scientific laws. I suggest that everything identified as "supernatural" is simply an example of phenomenon we (or at least the observer) are not immediately able to explain. There is an instinct in human beings that, when presented with a mysterious problem that cannot easily be solved, suggests that the problem is unsolvable, partitioning off the segment of reality in question as somehow "separate" or "above" the natural laws that govern the rest of reality. Personally, I find such a notion to be absurd; identifying a phenomenon as "supernatural" effectively says that the problem of ignorance rests with reality rather than our understanding of it. Ignorance is a problem of human knowledge; our ignorance means that we are flawed, not reality. Worshiping a "supernatural" phenomenon really just means worshiping one's own ignorance rather than investigating to find out what's really going on and fix the flaw in your own understanding. That's why religion typically has an issue with science, and why the God of the Gaps continues to get smaller. The investigation of mysterious phenomenon has historically served to transform the "supernatural" into the natural, as we come to understand things we were previously ignorant of. Those who cherish belief in the "supernatural," those who find grace and fulfillment and wonder in their own ignorance, push back when, say, the Theory of Evolution solidly proves Biblical Creationism to be wrong as a matter of simple fact.
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pfrankinstein Junior Member (Idle past 4646 days) Posts: 5 Joined: |
Rahvin I suggest that everything identified as "supernatural" is simply an example of phenomenon we (or at least the observer) are not immediately able to explain. Therein lies the rub. The moment we discover how the feat above nature is performed then it no longer is perceived as being supernatural. Fat end of the wedge example: If a man can reach a destination faster than he can run on his own two legs, can it be said that he has journeyed, time travelled by supernatural means? Paul. Edited by pfrankinstein, : No reason given.
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pfrankinstein Junior Member (Idle past 4646 days) Posts: 5 Joined: |
Theory of Evolution solidly proves Biblical Creationism to be wrong as a matter of simple fact. Sadly 'evolution' does not answer the question of first cause. Also. There is mention of a tree of life in the bible, Darwin encapsulated his theory with a 'tree of life' metaphor. Paul.
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