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Author | Topic: Love Wins - Rob Bell | |||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
This book hasn't been released yet but it is apparently stirring up a great deal of discussion. The obvious thing that it points out is that there is considerable disagreement within Christianity about the nature of hell and how you wind up getting there.
For whatever my view is worth I think that he is on the right track. His views reminds me of the book by CS Lewis called "The Great Divorce". Here is an article from USA Today on the book.
Love Wins by Rob Bell
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I think his view is becoming more mainstream. The view that in the end people choose between love of self and love of God. Nobody should be forced into an eternity with God against their wishes. His view is along the same lines as C S Lewis, Tim Keller and N T (Tom) Wright.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
He does. This is from beliefnet:
quote: http://blog.beliefnet.com/...tics-heated-up-by-bells-hel.php
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Here is a link to a Newsweek interview with Rob Bell on the interview. If you move the cursor to the 13 minute point you'll miss the introduction.
Newsweek Interview of Rob Bell about his book Love Wins
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I have ordered the book from amazon but won't have it for another couple of weeks. It is certainly stirring up a great deal of controversy. Here is CNN's report on Bell and his book.
CNN on Rob Bell
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I have finished reading the book. I found it very interesting. It isn't the typical evangelical point of view and he certainly has upset a number of his fellow evangelicals.
Personally I think that he is on the right track, (which of course assumes that I am ), but the only problem I had with the book is that I would like tohave heard more about what he specifically believes about his Christian faith. Here is a Time article on the book.
Is Hell Dead Actually I don't think the Time article accurately reflects Bell's beliefs about hell. Bell claims that he is not a universalist and I would agree with that. He does however assert, as do many others, that in the end those that wind up in hell choose it. This Time article mentions that he is a huge devotee of N T Wright as am I. I believe that his views on the subject are consistent with Wright's and for that matter Timothy Keller I see all three as being traditionally orthodox in their approach to scripture, Christ's bodily resurrection and the coming together of heaven and earth at the end of time as we know it. They all preach moral responsibility and that what we do in regard to our planet and the life on it matters eternally. Bottom line it does depart from the distorted Christian view that what matters is getting our theology right. As Rob Bell succinctly puts it "Love Wins" Edited by GDR, : No reason given. Edited by GDR, : Messed up the link Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Aware Wolf writes: I don't see how it makes sense that anyone in their right mind chooses hell. Not unless hell really isn't all that bad, or they don't have all the information. Rather than looking for a quote from Bell or the others I'll try it in my own words. In the 60's a couple of phrases that were popular was "looking out for number one" or "if it feels good do it". The point of these phrases that was that it was all about "me". In the end, and I believe that is very scriptural, (read Matthew 25 with the separating of the sheep and the goats), we choose between selfish love and unselfish love. If at the end we choose to hang on to our love of self and we reject a world that is characterized by unselfish love then we will have chosen hell whatever that looks like. C S Lewis wrote the book "The Great Divorce" which I think does a great job in a metaphorical way of making sense of this. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes: This "freedom" that the love demands would encompass many of the specifics I would guess that you want to know. So, I would guess that even if you asked him directly, his answer would not be so much a specific answer as more of a general "let's not get hung up on details" dismissal anyway. I guess my point was that there has to be a foundation on which to build your case, and I would like to have present more detail on that. However, I understand what you're getting at and you are likely correct.
Stile writes: The Hell Rob talks about is just 'separation from God,' yes? Not necessarily eternal torment in the generally direct fire/painful sense? In this way, I can see some folk choosing to be away from God... and therefore "choosing Hell." I think it is pretty much like that. I think it is very hard to let go the of the traits that we pick up along the way in this life.
Stile writes: I'm no Bible-scholar, but isn't that one of Jesus' main messages to the Pharisees? Not to focus on getting the theology right, but to focus on being a good person? Largely yes. The Pharisees believed that they would be rewarded for "religiously" following a complex list of laws, (not totally unlike some churches today). MInd you, in their mind the reward would be God returning and establishing Israel as kingdom that would rule militarily over its neighbours. Jesus presented a very different picture. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stiles writes: Is faith important at all? If so, which has priority? It's certainly possible for someone to experience and choose unselfish love over selfish love without using faith in Jesus (or faith in much of anything, really). Therefore, faith is irrelevant to one's eternal life placement?(Maybe this apathy towards faith is why so many are calling Rob Bell a heretic?) Where do you think faith fits into all this?Just a useful tool for some to find the path to unselfish love? Or something that's more... required for some other important message? I think that faith is crucial. The question is faith in what and for what reason. If we are talking about where we spend eternity then it is a matter of having faith in the Christ’s message of love, forgiveness, mercy, kindness, justice etc. I don’t see anywhere in the scriptures that those attributes will only be found amongst those that call themselves Christian. I suggest that scripture makes the case that not all followers of Jesus have it right either.
quote: Incidentally, scripture does indicate that the choices that we make in this life do have eternal consequences, so maybe it’s more than just a matter of either spending eternity with God in the new creation or being separated from Him for eternity whatever that looks like. Maybe our lives now will impact what our lives will look like in the next life whether we are in or out. Here is another verse in Matthew 7 that I think a number of people who call themselves Christian should ponder.
quote: Having said that I also believe that Christian faith is crucial. I believe that when an individual comes to believe in Jesus Christ and all that goes with that, then something changes. First off, when I say believe, I am not talking about just intellectual assent, but more importantly belief meaning that we trust in what Jesus taught and in what Jesus did for us on the cross. I contend that when someone makes that decision with both mind, and more importantly heart, that there is a change in that person’s life that is assisted by the Holy Spirit of God. I suggest that this change of heart that is experienced does bring about the change of heart in the direction that God desires of all of us. However, it is not just about salvation, but, and very importantly, it is about vocation. The Christian vocation is to be reflectors of Christ’s love, mercy, forgiveness, justice etc to the world and for the world, with the idea that the world gradually over time becomes a reflection of the one who created us. Christians are called to follow the example of Christ and be servants to and for the world. From personal experience I would agree that as often as not we do a miserable job of it, but still, that is the job we have been given to do. I’d add the note that becoming a Christian does not necessarily make me more Christ-like than my atheistic neighbour but it should make me more Christ-like than I had been previously. So yes,I believe that faith does play a crucial role in all of this. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Aware Wolf writes: Wouldn't the folks who are "overly" interested in themselves be even more likely to choose paradise over torment for themselves? Who knows what is in the heart of people. Maybe there are those who would find eternity in a selfless existence to be torment.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Aware Wolf writes: Well, OK. I don't want to drag the thread off topic. It just seems like it's an implied truism in the Christian worldview that Heaven is hugely, objectively preferrable to Hell.
It seems to me that for a huge majority of us life in a world whose main feature is everyone for themselves would be intolerable. It would be hell. Edited by GDR, : Corrected wording
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Phat writes: We may well offend by tarnishing the perfect world that God demands...but it does not follow that we must be punished. It is my contention that I worship a loving and just God. If God were to be an entity that punished for eternity those that didn't get their theology right then stop the bus and let me off. Who wants to worship a God like that? Frankly that would make heaven sound more like hell as it has turned Jesus' teaching around and make it all about me. It's no wonder that so many people leave the Christian faith when it is twisted into something that would have more in common with the Pharisees, (it's all about sanctimoniously keeping the laws), than it has with the teachings of Jesus. I don't have all the answers but I have no doubt that the loving just God that I worship will in the end treat everyone justly. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Aware Wolf writes: I think our short conversation here isn't getting off the ground because we aren't talking about the same thing. I'm assuming the "traditional" definitions of Heaven and Hell where, even if we don't have the details, Heaven is wonderful and glorious and Hell is a place of suffering, not because of who might be there but because of the natures of Heaven and Hell themselves. If you aren't also assuming the same thing, then it's a pointless exchange and we may as well wrap it up.
Frankly the Bible tells us a great deal more about our lives now than it does about heaven and hell in our future. A great deal of what is in the Bible uses Jewish apocalyptic writing which when interpreted in some literal sense loses the intent of the author. The point is that Jesus' teaching was for the lives that we lead in this existence, and if we do that with kindness and justice the next life will take care of itself. The Bible in my view tells us very little about the next life but does make it clear that there is one. However as to your post, I do believe that Heaven is wonderful and glorious and that Hell is a place of suffering. Compare the two. If Heaven is an existence where unselfish love is the norm, then just imagine what a wonderful existence that would be. Contrast that with a world where selfish love, where everyone is looking out for number one, is the norm and think what a hellish existence that would be. I suggest that life in Hell would just gradually continue more and more to dehumanize us until life as we know it would become virtually unrecognizable. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes: I think that if we are going to follow the Message of Love (love, forgiveness, mercy, kindness, justice etc...), than we are forced to "have faith."I don't think there's an objective, absolute way to show that these things are "better" than evil things. In this sense, I think we must have faith that these things are "good" and live our lives in that fashion. ...there is the slightly reality-based fact that if we go about being evil, we're likely to be punished or even killed by our community. This would be a non-faith reason (self-preservation) to carry the Message of Love (or, at least act in that manner), but I think the faith-based reason to carry the message is a much more honorable reason than one based upon selfish reasoning. Of course, the faith I'm talking about here is not religious or Jesus Christ related in anyway, it's using the simpler definition along the lines of "believing in something for which there is no evidence." The only nuance I would add is that one doesn't have to be religiously affiliated to live a life characterized by unselfish love, but it would be my contention that it is only possible because the choice is only there in the first place because of God. Obviously that is a faith issue as well.
Stile writes: My view is that the "faith" is crucial. Back to what I was talking about above, it's the belief in doing good things for the sake of simply being good that's crucial, rather than doing good things for selfish reasons. This difference may not show in our actions, but it is a mindset that is extremely different from one based on self-preservation. That is my view as well except that if the change of mindset is real then a change in actions is bound to follow.
Stile writes: You contend that when Christian Faith is accepted, there is a change in a person's life that is assisted by the Holy Spirit of God.I contend that when Love Faith is accepted (non-religious, as I have proposed above), there is a change in a person's life that is perpetuated by this unselfish mindset. In both situations, I would say that the person would be following the Message of Love. I would also say that the unselfish mindset I am talking about is what you're calling the Holy Spirit of God. How this all works is one of the first questions I'd like to ask God so I am only offering what I believe to be the case. (By the way, in the next life I'm definitely going to all the lectures. ) I think that we have to be open to wanting our lives changed and through that we are open to God's spirit to work in us and through us. If we do it as Christians I suppose the answer should be obvious, but for non-Christians I just don't know. I do know that God loves all of his creation regardless of religious beliefs so I'm inclined to think that the Holy Spirit is involved for everyone who desires a life of unselfish love. As I say, I'll get back to you in the next life with a definite answer.
Stile writes: But, this is getting into personal preference and away from what Rob Bell is discussing.As far as our thoughts about Rob Bell go... I too agree that he's on the right path, but I think he has a longer distance to go as I do not see any importance in the Christian portion of Christian Faith (or, say, the Muslim portion of Muslim Faith). I think it's the Faith part that is important, and simple... just faith that good is good and that we should strive to increase good in our lives and those around us. Actually I think we have stayed on topic as these are the things the book deals with. As to the importance of the Christian faith I see it this way. Is the story in the Christian Gospel true? Was Jesus Christ bodily resurrected? If it is true, then the Christian portion is crucial. If it is not true then there is no more reason to listen to what he has to say than any other man preaching a message of love and peace. It would make him the equivalent of Mahatma Gandhi.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes: I would completely agree. If the Christian Gospel is true, then I would fully admit that the Christian portion is crucial to Faith.The same with Hindu beliefs, if their core historic claims (do they have a Gospel?) are true, then I would say the Hindu portion would be crucial to Faith. I just happen to lean a bit closer towards the "not true" side. We would agree that the heart formed choices that we make in this world matter but the big question is why do they matter. I'll just quote from the near the end of Rob Bell’s book.
quote: The Jews at the time of Jesus primarily believed that the point of being chosen by God was that it meant that they would be vindicated in this life and be allowed to rule establish a kingdom that would powerfully rule over their neighbouring pagan neighbours. Jesus said that it isn't what the kingdom model looks like. It seems to me that there are parts of the church today that have essentially the same message. I think there are those who believe that by believing the right stuff, by joining the right church they will be part of a kingdom that is vindicated in the sight of their neighbours, only now that belief has been put off to the next life. I and I would say that to a large degree the point of writing this book was to point out that once again a big chunk of the church has their kingdom message wrong. (This does make plain why there is opposition to it.) After the resurrection the message of the apostles was that Jesus was, and is, King and that Caesar isn't. So if Jesus reigns we should look at that model. Jesus was a servant King. He was prepared to reign by doing the lowliest of jobs. He washed the disciple’s feet. So yes, if the Christian Gospel is true, if Jesus was resurrected then it is crucial. That being the case I suggest that it is all important to do all that we can to know the truth about Jesus, because if it is correct then we have our world model all wrong and we should do something about it. How many leaders in our world do we see that actually have a servant’s heart. You and I are going to have to vote on a new government in about 11 days. Christianity calls us to humbly love kindness and do justice. Are those the qualities that we look for in our leaders? I’m inclined to think that most of us vote based on something quite different and that Jesus, if He were running, wouldn't get too far. I think that Bell makes out a good case and Love Wins’ is a worthwhile read.
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