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Author Topic:   Creationism in science classrooms (an argument for)
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 226 of 609 (606733)
02-28-2011 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Dr Adequate
02-24-2011 3:27 AM


The law is the law.
Sensible or denying the truth its still the law.
No one could teach YEC though it was proven true as long as the present law is in place.
Yec is banned today by this law despite being the truth.
My greater point is that there is no such law in the constitution dealing with school subjects.
There is no actual connection between church/state relations and everything the state pays for.
It was not the founders intention. Absurd.
The people simply should have the power to vote up or down these matters.
Creationism is historic, popular, and intellectually solid.
no problem to returning it to the classroom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-24-2011 3:27 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-28-2011 5:26 AM Robert Byers has not replied
 Message 232 by jar, posted 02-28-2011 9:14 AM Robert Byers has not replied
 Message 234 by Coyote, posted 02-28-2011 9:47 AM Robert Byers has not replied
 Message 243 by Taq, posted 02-28-2011 4:46 PM Robert Byers has not replied

Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 227 of 609 (606734)
02-28-2011 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by ringo
02-24-2011 10:22 AM


ringo writes:
Robert Byers writes:
If the state teaches Genesis is false then its not neutral!
If the state taught that Treasure Island is true but War and Peace is fiction, that would not be neutral. If it teaches that both are fiction, that is neutral.
Similarly, teaching that Genesis is fiction - i.e. it doesn't match our observations of the real world - is not a breach of neutrality.
Neutrality means not treating one book differently from all of the others. That isn't really what you want, is it?
Nope. its not taught based on the use of law.
Nothing to do with whether its true.
In fact saying its not true, these Christian doctrines, is illegal as some posters here have said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 02-24-2011 10:22 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by ringo, posted 02-28-2011 9:41 AM Robert Byers has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 228 of 609 (606737)
02-28-2011 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Robert Byers
02-28-2011 5:01 AM


The law is the law.
Sensible or denying the truth its still the law.
No one could teach YEC though it was proven true as long as the present law is in place.
Yec is banned today by this law despite being the truth.
Well, no. If it was true, then there would be a valid secular purpose in teaching it, and there would be no problem with doing so.
My greater point is that there is no such law in the constitution dealing with school subjects.
The Supreme Court thinks you're wrong.
There is no actual connection between church/state relations and everything the state pays for.
It was not the founders intention.
And it wasn't the founders that wrote the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which is the legal foundation of the Incorporation Doctrine.
The people simply should have the power to vote up or down these matters.
Creationism is historic, popular, and intellectually solid.
no problem to returning it to the classroom.
"Intellectually solid"?
Oh my dear chap.
And there are a number of problems with returning it to the classroom, one being that you'd have to require every competent science teacher in the system to recite words which they knew to be untrue.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Robert Byers, posted 02-28-2011 5:01 AM Robert Byers has not replied

Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 229 of 609 (606738)
02-28-2011 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by NoNukes
02-24-2011 10:42 AM


I insist. Teaching Christian doctrines are wrong is illegal if the very law invoked to ban creationism is about neutrality and non interference.
Its logic.
Louisiana ain't right about everything.
Creationism is only indirectly dealing with religion. in fact it deals with ideas about origins.
Banning it is saying its false.
Saying its false is illegal.
Here we go again.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-28-2011 5:32 AM Robert Byers has not replied
 Message 231 by Huntard, posted 02-28-2011 5:37 AM Robert Byers has not replied
 Message 235 by jar, posted 02-28-2011 10:01 AM Robert Byers has replied
 Message 236 by bluescat48, posted 02-28-2011 12:57 PM Robert Byers has not replied
 Message 239 by frako, posted 02-28-2011 1:44 PM Robert Byers has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 230 of 609 (606739)
02-28-2011 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Robert Byers
02-28-2011 5:27 AM


Creationism is only indirectly dealing with religion.
Which is why it's OK to implicitly teach that it's wrong.
If someone founded a religion that had amongst its tenets that two twos are five, it might be illegal to denounce that religion by name,, just as it would be wrong to denounce the various Christian sects that promote creationism. But it would still be OK to teach that two twos are four.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Robert Byers, posted 02-28-2011 5:27 AM Robert Byers has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 231 of 609 (606742)
02-28-2011 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Robert Byers
02-28-2011 5:27 AM


Robert Byers writes:
Saying its false is illegal.
It certainly isn't. You can say anything you like about things being false, and you will never ever be doing something illegal. Maybe something ignorant and idiotic, but certainly not illegal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Robert Byers, posted 02-28-2011 5:27 AM Robert Byers has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 232 of 609 (606759)
02-28-2011 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Robert Byers
02-28-2011 5:01 AM


Robert Byers writes:
The law is the law.
Sensible or denying the truth its still the law.
No one could teach YEC though it was proven true as long as the present law is in place.
Yec is banned today by this law despite being the truth.
Bullshit. If there was evidence supporting a young earth it could be taught; however young earth has been totally falsified and so teaching it is teaching a falsehood.
Robert Byers writes:
My greater point is that there is no such law in the constitution dealing with school subjects.
There is no actual connection between church/state relations and everything the state pays for.
It was not the founders intention. Absurd.
The people simply should have the power to vote up or down these matters.
Creationism is historic, popular, and intellectually solid.
no problem to returning it to the classroom.
Creationism is NOT intellectually solid or supported by any evidence. If it was it could be taught.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Robert Byers, posted 02-28-2011 5:01 AM Robert Byers has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 233 of 609 (606761)
02-28-2011 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Robert Byers
02-28-2011 5:03 AM


Robert Byers writes:
Nope. its not taught based on the use of law.
Nothing to do with whether its true.
We were talking about neutrality. You claimed that the state is not being neutral if it teaches that Genesis is false. I said that it is being neutral if it treats all falsehoods the same.
Robert Byers writes:
In fact saying its not true, these Christian doctrines, is illegal as some posters here have said.
It isn't illegal to teach that Genesis is false - i.e. that it doesn't match observed reality. It isn't illegal to teach that Genesis is true either (although it could be seen as fraud). It's illegal to teach only Genesis above other religious writings.

You can have brevity and clarify, or you can have accuracy and detail, but you can't easily have both. --Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Robert Byers, posted 02-28-2011 5:03 AM Robert Byers has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-28-2011 1:25 PM ringo has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 234 of 609 (606762)
02-28-2011 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Robert Byers
02-28-2011 5:01 AM


YECh
No one could teach YEC though it was proven true as long as the present law is in place.
Yec is banned today by this law despite being the truth.
YEC has been disproved. It is simply superstition, and science has shown that it is incorrect as well.
By claiming it to be "proven true" and "the truth" you are preaching, and preaching a falsehood.
And you want that falsehood taught as science? What a joke!
(See tagline, below.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Robert Byers, posted 02-28-2011 5:01 AM Robert Byers has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 235 of 609 (606763)
02-28-2011 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Robert Byers
02-28-2011 5:27 AM


Robert Byers writes:
I insist. Teaching Christian doctrines are wrong is illegal if the very law invoked to ban creationism is about neutrality and non interference.
Its logic.
Louisiana ain't right about everything.
Creationism is only indirectly dealing with religion. in fact it deals with ideas about origins.
Banning it is saying its false.
Saying its false is illegal.
Here we go again.
Of course you are free to insist all you want. That is your right.
We are talking though about science classes.
For example, if you could provide overwhelming evidence that the earth was young you could teach that in a science class ... until someone points to a single fact that totally refutes young earth.
You could NOT teach "special Creation" though unless and until you can present the method and model that some creator used. If you can present the method and model and it could be supported scientifically (no insert miracle here) then that could be taught in a science class.
Now in a mythology class or religious education class or history class or social studies class you could mention that some Christians hold certain beliefs that have been totally refuted by the facts of the universe we live in.
BUT ... you need to stop claiming that what you present are Christian doctrines. That is simply false. They are doctrines held by some sub-groups and cults within Christianity, but not by Christianity as a whole.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Robert Byers, posted 02-28-2011 5:27 AM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Robert Byers, posted 03-03-2011 3:47 AM jar has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 236 of 609 (606814)
02-28-2011 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Robert Byers
02-28-2011 5:27 AM


Creationism is only indirectly dealing with religion. in fact it deals with ideas about origins.
Except that there is no evidence of this creation, which is why it can't be taught in a science class.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 237 of 609 (606817)
02-28-2011 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Bolder-dash
02-24-2011 12:53 AM


Bolder-dash Suspended for 4 Weeks
Bolder-dash has been spamming threads and ignoring moderation for a while now, so I'm going to give the website a break for 4 weeks.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 238 of 609 (606820)
02-28-2011 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by ringo
02-28-2011 9:41 AM


It isn't illegal to teach that Genesis is false - i.e. that it doesn't match observed reality. It isn't illegal to teach that Genesis is true either ...
I think you're wrong. As I understand the interpretation that the courts put on the First Amendment, it is illegal (in public schools, which is what we're talking about) to teach that Genesis is true; and it is also illegal to teach explicitly that it is false. However, one can teach the facts that falsify it.
(I am not a lawyer, but I play one in elaborate swindles that defraud the gullible.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by ringo, posted 02-28-2011 9:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 02-28-2011 1:54 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 255 by Robert Byers, posted 03-03-2011 3:54 AM Dr Adequate has replied

frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 239 of 609 (606824)
02-28-2011 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Robert Byers
02-28-2011 5:27 AM


Creationism is only indirectly dealing with religion. in fact it deals with ideas about origins.
Well lets teach some other forms of creationism in ones religion the universe began when a giant bird was sitting on an egg so it would hatch and when it did it produced our universe. Hey that sounds like the big bang it must be true put it in the classrooms just dont mention what gods where also spawned from the egg and it should pass, lets make students make the decide whats right the bird and egg creation, the creo creation, or Science.
Banning it is saying its false.
Saying its false is illegal.
No watch me its false false false false false a lie a ferry tale totaly false. See nothing to it now you try.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Robert Byers, posted 02-28-2011 5:27 AM Robert Byers has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 240 of 609 (606825)
02-28-2011 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Dr Adequate
02-28-2011 1:25 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
As I understand the interpretation that the courts put on the First Amendment, it is illegal (in public schools, which is what we're talking about) to teach that Genesis is true; and it is also illegal to teach explicitly that it is false. However, one can teach the facts that falsify it.
Yes, I may have oversimplified the legal niceties of exactly who can say what and where and at what time. I meant to emphasize that what's actually forbidden is singling out Genesis or any specific interpretation of Genesis.

You can have brevity and clarify, or you can have accuracy and detail, but you can't easily have both. --Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-28-2011 1:25 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Robert Byers, posted 03-03-2011 3:57 AM ringo has replied

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