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Author Topic:   Unfairness and monkeys
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 1 of 8 (58578)
09-29-2003 4:35 PM


I'm putting this in Human Origins because I thought it was an interesting insight on our distant cousins the capuchin monkeys acting just like kindergarten kids ( or adult humans in the American workplace....). There's an article from Emory University by Sarah Brosnan and F.M.B. DeWaal - Nature 425, 297 - 299 (18 September 2003) titled "Monkeys reject unequal pay."
The abstract, references omitted:
During the evolution of cooperation it may have become critical for individuals to compare their own efforts and pay-offs with those of others. Negative reactions may occur when expectations are violated. One theory proposes that aversion to inequity can explain human cooperation within the bounds of the rational choice model1, and may in fact be more inclusive than previous explanation. Although there exists substantial cultural variation in its particulars, this 'sense of fairness' is probably a human universal that has been shown to prevail in a wide variety of circumstances. However, we are not the only cooperative animals, hence inequity aversion may not be uniquely human. Many highly cooperative nonhuman species seem guided by a set of expectations about the outcome of cooperation and the division of resources. Here we demonstrate that a nonhuman primate, the brown capuchin monkey (Cebus apella), responds negatively to unequal reward distribution in exchanges with a human experimenter. Monkeys refused to participate if they witnessed a conspecific obtain a more attractive reward for equal effort, an effect amplified if the partner received such a reward without any effort at all. These reactions support an early evolutionary origin of inequity aversion.
Specifically, the experimenter had two monkeys in full view of each other in adjacent cages. The monkeys were already used to a task where they would exchange a token - a small rock - for a treat. Monkey A would trade rocks for slices of cucumber all day, except when the experimenter gave Monkey B a grape for its token, and then tried to foist off a cucumber slice on Monkey A. A would then typically either refuse to offer the token, refuse to take the cuke, or throw the "inferior" treat away.
All the control conditions appear to me to be tested in this study. It beats me if there's really much to discuss, but it sure looks to me like one more anthropocentrism trashed - we're not the only critter that will pout and sulk when it's "no fair."
[This message has been edited by Coragyps, 09-29-2003]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Rei, posted 09-29-2003 4:54 PM Coragyps has replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 2 of 8 (58585)
09-29-2003 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Coragyps
09-29-2003 4:35 PM


I love primate/token experiments... it's amazing how readily primates seem to take to the concept of money I should see if I can dig up that study where they observed prostitution among chimpanzees after introducing them to a money system where they can exchange tokens for treats...
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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 Message 1 by Coragyps, posted 09-29-2003 4:35 PM Coragyps has replied

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 3 of 8 (58593)
09-29-2003 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rei
09-29-2003 4:54 PM


hooker chimps?!
So the world's oldest profession is even older yet?

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 Message 2 by Rei, posted 09-29-2003 4:54 PM Rei has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by BellaSanta, posted 10-08-2003 11:04 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
BellaSanta
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 8 (60092)
10-08-2003 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coragyps
09-29-2003 5:10 PM


Re: hooker chimps?!
Let me get this right....this topic is discussing a monkey's ability to barter? Most societies, whether they be human or animal, partake in some form of bartering systems. Why do you think the study of monkey/ape societies helps better our understanding of early hominid societies and behavioural patterns?
Bella

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 Message 5 by NosyNed, posted 10-08-2003 12:20 PM BellaSanta has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 5 of 8 (60108)
10-08-2003 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by BellaSanta
10-08-2003 11:04 AM


Re: hooker chimps?!
Animal societies partaking in bartering? What are you referring to? And I think this is specically *not* bartering. That is not a direct exchange but rather through the use of money. In addtion that isn't the point of it. The point is the concept of "fairness" seems to be there.
I think that the point is, just as we are close to our cousins physically we are also close to them in some of the underpinnings of your mind as well. There is a continuum.
[This message has been edited by NosyNed, 10-08-2003]

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 Message 4 by BellaSanta, posted 10-08-2003 11:04 AM BellaSanta has replied

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BellaSanta
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 8 (60515)
10-11-2003 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by NosyNed
10-08-2003 12:20 PM


Re: hooker chimps?!
Bartering - the action of exchange by which both parties recieve goods. Thus money in exchange for goods is by definition bartering. Its survival of the fittest at its best, if you have something better than me then I would naturally want it, if I have something better than I would not be willing to exchange it.
"I think that the point is, just as we are close to our cousins physically we are also close to them in some of the underpinnings of your mind as well. There is a continuum."
If you had read my post properly you would have seen that my general point was that we are close to our "cousins" and this is why we study them, in oder to understand early human behaviour.
Your point of view is interesting none the less
Bella

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 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 10-11-2003 1:02 PM BellaSanta has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 8 (60522)
10-11-2003 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by BellaSanta
10-11-2003 10:49 AM


If we're going to try to draw parallels between this study and human economics, as you seem on the verge of doing, then it seems incorrect to identify these behaviors as most closely like bartering or free trade or capitalism.
It would be more accurate to describe this behavior as a sense of entitlement, ala socialism or welfare. Because the chimps aren't setting up a free market or something, they're becoming distressed or recalcitrant when they observe somebody getting a better deal than themselves. If that's not a "class warfare" sort of behavior I don't know what is.

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 Message 6 by BellaSanta, posted 10-11-2003 10:49 AM BellaSanta has replied

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BellaSanta
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 8 (60674)
10-13-2003 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
10-11-2003 1:02 PM


Crashfrog,
hehe I am no expert on monkey behaviour or the studies they have done involving monkeys. I only know about certain case studies which involved drawing parallels between monkey and human behaviour. I am quite happy to learn more as the subject interests me. I understand that monkeys do have a class order kind of like a heirarchy. One of my housemates is actually doing her own research study into how this heirarchy affects the ways in which they eat i.e do the dominant ones get more food etc. I am not sure if I can say that you may be taking 'bartering' out of context a little. As you said the monkeys aren't setting up a free market, I understand that they do not have a sense of social values as we do as humans, but isn't it possible that they can barter. Early civilizations have shown us that one might be able to make fish nets while another able to successfully fish. Bartering then occurs when the net maker baters his hard work for fish. Can this happen with monkeys? (of course they do not have specialised trades but I am trying to get to the raw sense of the word to barter).
Just a curious thought.
Bella

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