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Author Topic:   Expansion of the Universe
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 3 of 31 (605349)
02-18-2011 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jefferinoopolis
02-18-2011 12:48 PM


I've been following the "Where did the matter and energy come from?" thread. And it touched on the expansion of the universe.
My understanding of this is that things aren't actually moving away from each other but space is actually expanding. We know this because objects that are farther away are moving away from each other faster than closer objects.
I don't think the 'from each other' part is correct. Objects farther away move faster away from us then closer objects, but not from each other.
But don't forget that what we measure isn't speed, it is redshift.
Do I understand this correctly and does this mean that objects like planets are expanding dimensionally? I'm sure that the size of material objects, even stars, is so small that it would be impossible to measure but over billions of years would there be a mearurable expansion in something the size of a planet?
The universe expand, but things the size of planets and stars don't because gravity keeps them together.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jefferinoopolis, posted 02-18-2011 12:48 PM Jefferinoopolis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 02-18-2011 5:45 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 7 of 31 (605356)
02-18-2011 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Percy
02-18-2011 5:45 PM


And yet andromeda is 2,5 million light years away from us, and it is coming towards us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 02-18-2011 5:45 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by JonF, posted 02-18-2011 8:30 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 02-18-2011 10:05 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 11 of 31 (605387)
02-18-2011 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Percy
02-18-2011 10:05 PM


There's no clear line of demarcation because with increasing distance the effects of gravity diminish gradually while those of expansion increase gradually. The larger the scale the more easily expansion will win out over gravity.
I was just responding to your statement that, "Objects farther away move faster away from us then closer objects, but not from each other." All observers in the universe would see precisely the same thing that we see from our vantage point here on Earth, that the further away an object is the faster it is retreating. This is because all points in space are retreating from all other points in space, but what's contained in that space, such as light and matter, will have their own motions and will attract each other gravitationally.
Unless I'm understanding all this wrong, then what you are saying here is exactly what I said earlier.
The OP said ''objects farther away move away faster from each other then objects closer away'' and I took this as meaning from our point of view, if we observe 4 objects, the two close far ones will move away from each other faster then the two closer ones from each other.
This is the kind of misunderstanding you get when the reference frames aren't clearly identified

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 Message 10 by Percy, posted 02-18-2011 10:05 PM Percy has replied

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 16 of 31 (605467)
02-20-2011 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Percy
02-20-2011 1:55 AM


I don't know how what I said could seem like post hoc rationalization.
The part of the OP was clearly badly worded (or is it my english comprehension?), and I simply misunderstood it to be what I wrote in my post no11. This is what I was responding to in my message no3.
But then again, your message no12 seems to clearly contradict Nonukes statement, which you now quote and agree with.
All this tells me that there is a misunderstanding, and that in fact we all agree with each other (but disagree with what Cavediver said)

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 Message 15 by Percy, posted 02-20-2011 1:55 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 02-20-2011 4:58 AM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 18 of 31 (605470)
02-20-2011 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Percy
02-20-2011 4:58 AM


I think NoNukes and I agree with Cavediver that as observed from Earth,
But you said, In reference to my comment: ''I took this as meaning from our point of view, if we observe 4 objects, the two far ones will move away from each other faster then the two closer ones from each other.''
Along a single line of sight this would be true, trivially true in fact. It wouldn't be possible for it to be any other way.
Nonukes replied:
It isn't true at all. Assuming that the expansion is isotropic, then space between the pair of points expands at a rate proportional to the current separation of the pairs of points. The distance from us to the pair of points is not relevant.
And Cavediver replied:
And actually it is, observationally, but opposite to what has been suggested. Distant pairs of objects will be observed to expand away from each other more slowly than similarly separated pairs that are closer, as the more distant pair are being more red-shifted.
Each successively contradict each other.
two distant objects at radial distances x1 < x2 will have a smaller measured radial Δv than two closer objects of the same radial separation.
But this seems to contradict what you said in post no12, which I took as meaning that farther objects would have a greater radial Δv (and, I think Nonukes interpreted your no12 as meaning this as well)
Ignoring local motion, two objects at separation x from each other will be retreating from one another at the exact same velocity no matter where they are in the universe.
Which is exactly what I said in message no3: ''Objects farther away move faster away from us then closer objects, but not from each other.''

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 02-20-2011 4:58 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Percy, posted 02-20-2011 8:41 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 02-20-2011 9:30 AM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 22 of 31 (605588)
02-21-2011 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by NoNukes
02-20-2011 9:30 AM


It seemed to me that there was some anbiguity about where we were disagreeing. In addition to the discussion about expansion effects, there was also the mention of Andromeda. At the time I made my comment, I was pretty sure you and I were saying the same thing and that your comment re Andromeda was tongue-in-cheek.
I accept that Cavediver and Percy's current statements regarding radialy motion are correct, as were yours and mine to the extent that we were talking about actual separation distances. It also seems likely that any apparent disagreement between your position on rates of expansion and Percy's were miscommunications.
You understood this perfectly. I misunderstood the OP, and in turn Percy misunderstood what I was trying to say, and you and cavediver apperently misunderstood what he first said.
But in the end, we're all saying the same thing it turns out.
The thing is that I study Math and physics, so this could have been avoided if Percy had assumed I was probably not wrong about a basic aspect of expanding space, and would have searched for an alternative interpretation of what I said

This message is a reply to:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 29 of 31 (605889)
02-22-2011 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Drevmar
02-21-2011 8:56 PM


Re: Question
I'm pretty sure a galaxy 12 billion light years from us would have to be moving faster then the speed of light to be coming at us faster then expansion would be seperating us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Drevmar, posted 02-21-2011 8:56 PM Drevmar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by cavediver, posted 02-22-2011 5:24 PM slevesque has not replied

  
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