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Author Topic:   Life on other Planets?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 38 of 160 (594474)
12-03-2010 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Bolder-dash
12-03-2010 11:01 AM


Bolder-dash writes:
So what are we to believe, what numbers can show or what empirical tests show (me).
The problem with your "empirical tests" is that they're not repeatable. Most people who try to reproduce your results will lose their shirts. We know that because casinos don't lose money. With a large sample, the statistics do work.
As for the topic, the chemistry of abiogenesis and the inevitability of evolution suggest that life has arisen and developed at many times and in many places in the universe. The liklihood that we will ever "discover" any of them (like Columbus discovered America) is not nearly as great as the likelihood that they exist(ed).

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-03-2010 11:01 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 89 of 160 (594653)
12-04-2010 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 12:36 AM


Re: Huh?????
Bolder-dash writes:
What you are trying to call evidence for anything is actually just speculation. First you can speculate that abiogenesis is possible without having the slightest bit of evidence that it is. What makes you think this is even possible?
You seem to be confusing science with history.
We don't have evidence of the exact pathway by which abiogenesis occurred just like we don't have inch-by-inch evidence of the route that Lewis and Clark took to the Pacific Ocean. But it isn't speculation to say that it's possible to reach the Pacific Ocean.
The existence of the Eiffel Tower is evidence of the possibility of building a 900-foot tower, even if we don't know the exact order in which the parts were assembled. Similarly, the existence of complex molecules is evidence of the possibility of making complex molecules, even if we don't know the exact pathway by which they originally did assemble. The fact that living organisms can assemble complex molecules out of simple components is further evidence that the necessary conditions do exist.
We can reasonably conclude - not speculate - that water has the same freeze/thaw/evaporate/condense behaviour on other planets as it does on earth. We can similarly conclude that other chemicals, the constituents of life, have the same behaviour on other planets as they do on earth. Hence, it is inevitable that abiogenesis will happen, given the appropriate conditions. And considering the size of the universe, it seems quite likely that those conditions do arise from time to time in one place or another.
Edited by ringo, : Changed "biogenesis" to "abiogenesis". Freudian slip?

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 12:36 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 101 of 160 (594687)
12-04-2010 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:36 PM


Bolder=dash writes:
(note: nor can we also conclude that all chemicals have the same behavior on other planets as they do on Earth)
To clarify, I mean that chemicals will have the same behaviour in the same conditions whether those conditions exist on earth or on other planets.
It seems reasonable to assume that earth-like conditions exist on other planets. Therefore, since we know that life began by abiogenesis on earth (whether it was helped along by some intelligent entity or not), it seems reasonable to conclude that the same process occured on other planets too (whether it was helped along by some intelligent entity or not).

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:36 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 143 of 160 (603024)
02-02-2011 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Blue Jay
02-02-2011 10:31 AM


Bluejay writes:
Why do people always think it makes sense to compare advanced aliens to 19th century European imperialists?
Because the 19th century wasn't very long ago in our evolutionary history. It seems likely that any aliens we encounter will still have some of the predatory instincts of their ancestors.
We did put a man on the moon a few days after segregation ended.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Blue Jay, posted 02-02-2011 10:31 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Blue Jay, posted 02-02-2011 2:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 147 of 160 (603066)
02-02-2011 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Blue Jay
02-02-2011 2:31 PM


Bluejay writes:
But it was quite a while ago in our societal history. The mindset of people has changed a lot since then: slavers and racists and imperialists are no longer the drivers of society these days.
Civilization is a pretty thin veneer. We still have horrific crimes. We still fight wars for reasons as stupid as they ever were.
I don't see tribal attitudes disappearing just because the tribe gets bigger. We fight our neighbours until they join us. Then we fight the next neighbourhood together until they join us. Then we fight the next community and the next district and the next nation. I don't see why we'd stop at fighting the next planet.
We developed primitive spacecraft when racism was still a significant driver of society. I don't think it's safe to assume that other evolved lifeforms would be different.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Blue Jay, posted 02-02-2011 2:31 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
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