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Member (Idle past 5114 days) Posts: 651 From: Jareth's labyrinth Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Abortion questions...? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
slevesque writes: Except you have presented no evidence that a foetus is a human being. BUT that still does not answer my question. Is it okay to kill in self defense? If the purpose is to save your live or save you from extreme danger, is it okay to protect yourself? But I did answer, I said if the intention is to protect yourself, then yes. If the intention was to kill the other, then no. It's the difference between, while being attacked, between accidentally pushing someone in front of a speedign car or purposefully doing so. Okay, so an abortion to protect the life and health of the mother is acceptable. Next question. Should cruel and unusual punishment be allowed? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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slevesque Member (Idle past 4671 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: |
Okay, so an abortion to protect the life and health of the mother is acceptable. Yes. Of course, if there should be some way to save the foetus and the mother, this should be done.
Should cruel and unusual punishment be allowed? Define 'cruel', define 'unusual'. And give a concrete example.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
slevesque writes: jar writes: Okay, so an abortion to protect the life and health of the mother is acceptable. Yes. Of course, if there should be some way to save the foetus and the mother, this should be done. Again, that is quibbling.
slevesque writes: jar writes: Should cruel and unusual punishment be allowed? Define 'cruel', define 'unusual'. And give a concrete example. A concrete example. Should someone who was raped be forced to live her life raising the child that resulted from that rape? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
The CDC does not gather information. It is voluntarly sent to them.
Yeah, from the states.
AGI collects information many ways..
I've cheched your links, and they don't say in any of it how they gathered the info specifically for the 2005 numbers, they just state 1.21mil as a matter of fact without showing how they got it. If you can quote something specific, maybe it will help your argument. Bare links won't help, even though I did search it. Found nothing. I'll go with the Center for Disease Control's number.
You can find how they gather information for the US on this page.
First, that is for 2003, not '05. Second, that link is for "Legal Abortion Worldwide: Incidence and Recent Trends," not to show how they gathered the info pertaining to the '05 abortion numbers.
Well their parents chose for them by having unprotected sex and producing them in the first place. Right, through no choice of theirs.
Get that tree off your shoulder, and quit jumping to conclusion about what I believe. You should know by know that ICANT be like other people. Then you are not a pro-lifer and I have no issue with you. Why are you going on the defensive if I wasn't talking about you?
My definition is that when the spermatozoan, and the ovum unite in a process called fertilization, and form a zygote a human exists. Ok, so you speculate that the soul enters when the egg is fertilized. Is that a fact we can use or is this your belief? Also, a human does NOT exist, what exists is a zygote, that is all. A zygote can only become an embryo, but only if it attaches itself to the uterus and develops a placenta. It is no more human than the sperm was, and it must go through a process just to make it to embryo, as the sperm did.
The spermatozoan is live cells as is the ovum but alone they cannot produce a human. But when combined they are a complete human. No, not at all. See above for the correct process.
I know you and everyone else will disagree but I can't help that. You did ask me to take up the question.
Of course. On the question of the soul you are guilded by your faith and I won't attempt to challenge it, only to ask for actual proof. However, on your comments about the zygote, since it is scientifically evidenced, there is no need for you to wing it when the proper evidence is available. - Oni
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slevesque Member (Idle past 4671 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: |
Again, that is quibbling. No not at all ... An ectopic pregancy will kill the mother if nothing is done. However, in some cases c-section plus incubation can save the foetus. In those cases, you should save it instead of just killing it with an abortion procedure.
A concrete example. Should someone who was raped be forced to live her life raising the child that resulted from that rape? No, she would not have to live her life raising the child. In any case, a child is never a ''punishment''.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
slevesque writes: jar writes: Again, that is quibbling. No not at all ... An ectopic pregancy will kill the mother if nothing is done. However, in some cases c-section plus incubation can save the foetus. In those cases, you should save it instead of just killing it with an abortion procedure. Possibly, we will see.
slevesque writes: jar writes: A concrete example. Should someone who was raped be forced to live her life raising the child that resulted from that rape? No, she would not have to live her life raising the child. In any case, a child is never a ''punishment''. Again, it is simply an assertion that a child is never a "punishment". So in the case of a woman who has been raped, is an abortion reasonable? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
However, in some cases c-section plus incubation can save the foetus. In those cases, you should save it instead of just killing it with an abortion procedure. And what do you do with the fetus after that?
No, she would not have to live her life raising the child. Then who would? The prison system? - Oni
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
slevesque writes: Are you saying that because I used the word ''foetus'', which only applies from the 11th week ? If so, then I'll say that this is very poor logic. It doesn't follow that I am saying anything prior to the 11th week isn't also a human being. It's the classic fallacy, if A implies B, then if not A, then not B. Not a fallacy at all. I am trying to understand where you stand. You said foetus, but evidently you meant zygote and everything thereafter? Is that what you meant when you used the word "foetus". It is important to speak clearly and to say what you mean. You should not expect people to understand what you mean if you do not speak clearly and/or misspeak. So did you mean foetus or any zygote and what comes after the zygote? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
However, in some cases c-section plus incubation can save the foetus. Ahh.....and who would pay for this procedure? Not sure if you are aware of the cost of a c-section in the states...but it is a hell of a lot more than an abortion, let alone the method you are talking about where this set of cells needs an incubation period before it is even a viable human life.
No, she would not have to live her life raising the child. Who would raise the "child"? "What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
However, in some cases c-section plus incubation can save the foetus. In those cases, you should save it instead of just killing it with an abortion procedure. You may want to check the medical literature on that. It is extremely rare. Most women would die if they kept an ectopic pregnancy to the point that the baby was viable outside of the womb. If you want to present evidence to support your assertion I would love to read it. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:In ectopic pregnancies the embryo or fetus will usually burst the organ containing it. Been there, done that! Mine was 4 weeks old when it blew out the tube. The egg can also implant in the ovary, abdomen, or the cervix, so you may see these referred to as cervical or abdominal pregnancies. None of these areas has as much space or nurturing tissue as a uterus for a pregnancy to develop. Very rarely has an abdominal pregnancy survived to viability and delivery. (As of 2008 about 109 globally.) So in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, the egg is doomed as soon as it attaches to the wrong area. If the situation is left to continue naturally the embryo or fetus will die as will the mother. We don't have the means to save and replant an egg or fetus that started out wrong. We also don't know if the egg or fetus would develop normally. Maybe they will in the future. In my case the fetus aborted itself, when the tube blew; and almost took me with it. At week 4, as you can see in the picture, there isn't much one can do with an embryo. PS: Never do this on a golf course. It really screws up your game and they don't refund green fees. Edited by purpledawn, : Added abdominal pregnancy numbers.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Then in that case you are in fault, since I am the one who used the word in this discussion, with the implied meaning of the official definition of the word. You are the one redefining our position.
I see the difference, but it is a non-sequitur. I used the word implying it's normal definition, and you misenterpreted it by thinking I was using it meaning something else. Quite often you have implied that supporting legalization is the same as supporting the abortion itself.
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slevesque Member (Idle past 4671 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: |
And what do you do with the fetus after that? Then who would? The prison system? Every child should be given a chance to live, even if the starting situation isn't ideal. Being raised in an orphanage, or a foster home, doesn't mean he will go in prison ....
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slevesque Member (Idle past 4671 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: |
Not a fallacy at all. I am trying to understand where you stand. You said foetus, but evidently you meant zygote and everything thereafter? Is that what you meant when you used the word "foetus". It is important to speak clearly and to say what you mean. You should not expect people to understand what you mean if you do not speak clearly and/or misspeak. So did you mean foetus or any zygote and what comes after the zygote? When I say foetus, I mean foetus. And if I say ''the foetus is a human being'', it does not mean I do or do not think the zygote is or is not a human being. In any case, my position on this was discussed earlier in the discussion, since I said that I would put the line at the 100th cell division, when they start to specialize into the various types of cells needed.
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slevesque Member (Idle past 4671 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: |
Ahh.....and who would pay for this procedure? Not sure if you are aware of the cost of a c-section in the states...but it is a hell of a lot more than an abortion, let alone the method you are talking about where this set of cells needs an incubation period before it is even a viable human life. Of course, we are talking about the society of the future, the one we would like to build. And I would have a free-health care system. Monetary reasons should never be the reason a human life isn't saved.
Who would raise the "child"? Foster family. Orphanage. I think there are a couple alternatives. Of course, as I said, none of them are ideal situations, but I think that if we really wanted to, a lot of progress could be made into this.
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