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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
Aurora
Junior Member (Idle past 4695 days)
Posts: 13
From: India
Joined: 12-09-2010


Message 211 of 657 (602458)
01-28-2011 1:22 PM


No need for evidence, its written in the Bible!
I wonder why some Bible believer keep looking for "pretty good evidence" of the exodus and Noah's flood. Why don't they just say 'God wipe out the evidences to test our faith, and those who believe the word of God in spite of the absence of evidence are the True Believers". These True Believers may be the few who would enter the kingdom of God.

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 212 of 657 (602467)
01-28-2011 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Buzsaw
01-24-2011 11:49 PM


Re: Which Sinai
The depth of the sea near the traditional Sinai is no where near as shallow as Nuweiba.
Please show us this shallow crossing at Nuweiba.
Here is a christian site that presents a very comprehensive refutation for Nuweiba.
quote:
They claim: "Only here, on the shores of Nuweiba, does the 'pathway' drop off at a gradual slope of one in fourteen, to a depth of just over 850 meters. On the Saudi side the slope climbs again at a slope of one in ten." Of course the suggested slop is ridiculous since 1/12 is the building code for wheel chair ramps. To descend to the 765m level at 1/12 slope would take 9 km (765m x 12). But that only takes you to the bottom and the actual deep trough is only 5 km wide. The data to produce the above contour maps were obtained by using a small portable fish finder "Simrad CE32" that has a max depth of 800m according to the owners manual. The actual depth that can be relied upon is much less, given the downward beam is 45 degree angle wide. The manual says that to reach 800 m: "use the 50 kHz for searching in a wider area, determining bottom conditions and going the deepest. The transmitter has a wide transmitter beam with a 45 opening." So they plot 850 meters which is 50m past what the equipment is rated for and the beam is far too wide to gain any valuable slope data. What do you expect from a home fish finder?
According to the British admiralty nautical depth chart 12, the land bridge is not flat as misrepresented above. In fact the depths, starting with the Egypt side, are 0m, 263m, 765m, 285m, 0m. This means that as they started crossing, they were at sea level (0m) then had to drop down immediately to 263 m, then continue for 5 km. Next, as they pass the 5 km mark, they drop down to a valley that is 765 m deep. This valley is 2.5 km down and 2.5 km back up again. and back up again. Next it rises again to the 285 meter level for 5 more km until you rise to sea level on the opposite shore in modern Saudi Arabia. The valley is 1500 feet deep. The CN tower is the tallest building in the world and is only 553m tall. This means that if we placed the CN tower at the deepest spot of 765m, the top of the CN tower would about even with the first 263 m shelf. So they would have to climb down the height of the CN tower in 2.5km to the bottom, then back up the height of the tower again in 2.5 km. That is quite an steep angle to walk down then back up again. The actual slope is 2.5 km to reach a depth of 765m according to British admiralty nautical depth chart 12. 2500m/765 = 1/3.3 slope, which is a 17 degree incline. This assumes a perfect condition slope, when in fact there are likely huge drop off points.
Source
Any idea how deep 765 meters is?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2011 11:49 PM Buzsaw has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 213 of 657 (602482)
01-28-2011 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Aurora
01-28-2011 1:22 PM


A Test Of Faith?
Why don't they just say 'God wipe out the evidences to test our faith ...
Many have used this argument in the past. The problem is that it leads to a conclusion by which the True Believer cannot abide.
First, there is no "pretty good evidence" of an exodus. Indeed there is no evidence at all. This could be a god hiding things, but then writing them up, in such stark detail, in his little book? Not much of a test, I'm sure. More like myth embellished through the eons of telling.
Now for the flood, not only is there no evidence of such a flood there is an abundance of conclusive evidence that such a flood did not occur. So this god would not only have to wipe out all the flood evidence it would also have to purposefully plant all the evidence leading to the conclusion that the flood did not happen.
This, of course, would make their god a liar.

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 657 (602562)
01-28-2011 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Theodoric
01-28-2011 2:11 PM


Re: Explaining the Nuweiba Sea Bottom Topography
Theodoric writes:
Please show us this shallow crossing at Nuweiba.
Here is a christian site that presents a very comprehensive refutation for Nuweiba.
LOL, Theodoric. What the image shows is what the crossing site is today. What the image does not show is what the crossing site was before the waters were separated long enough to dry up the crossing site, a great multitude of people and animals to cross and for Pharaoh's large army of chariots to enter the sea.
In order for the sea bed to wind dry and for the great multitude, including the animals, etc to get across, a significant amount of water would have built up upstream where the Jordan River flowed into the sea at it's inlet. A significant amount of time would have passed. For the great multitude a relatively wide area would have been dried, leaving an extremely great depth of water upstream where the Jordan flowed in. .
Then after Jehovah lifted the thick cloud preventing Pharaoh from moving was lifted there would have had to be significant time for the large army of pursuers to move up and to completely occupy the sea floor.
Now, consider the North upstream wall of water and the South downstream wall. Upstream, the Gulf of Aqaba would have become significantly higher as the River Jordon flowed into it while the activity was going on at the crossing. Downstream the sea level would have waned some as the flow from the Jordan would have been shut off.
The build up from the North side would have rendered the North depth higher than the South depth. What this would have created is a tsunami. We all know the power of water to erode. What one should expect to see today is precisely what the image shows; a deep cut in the middle of the crossing site as the North wall of water overpowered the south wall, effecting a North to south tsunami.
The least affected would have been nearer to the shores as the deeper area of the sea above the site would have been where the erosion would have been the greatest. Likely this is why relatively few chariot parts and other things from the army remained as evidence relatively near the shore lines.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 657 (602566)
01-28-2011 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Percy
01-07-2011 8:15 AM


Re: Reviewing The Evidence
Percy writes:
Buzsaw writes:
I know that the Bibles have been confiscated in Saudi Arabia.
Were the Saudis confiscating Old Testaments? Or were they perhaps confiscating the normal western Bibles we're all familiar with that contain both Old and *New* Testaments?
As Theodoric has been trying to explain to you, Moses is a revered figure in Islam.
But Muslims would find the New Testament claim that Jesus is the son of God objectionable. The Koran even states at one point, "Allah is but one God. Allah forbid that he should have a son!" (4:171, look it up in you Koran). However, Islam does revere Jesus as a prophet.
--Percy
From what I've understood, no Bibles are allowed to be dispersed or preached in Saudi Arabia. Though Mohammed gleaned distorted doctrines that suited his concocted up scripture, he never acknowledged the Biblical god, Jehovah. Nor did he ever acknowledge Jehovah's favor-ability to Jacob and his 12 tribe sons who became the patriarchs of Israel over Esau, (ABE: Jacob's brother, who's descendents were the enemies of Israel.) Certainly, Saudi Arabia would have a vested interest in avoiding the Exodus, favorable to the Jews and all else relative to the Old Testament scriptures which were favorable to the Jews and unfavorable to the Islamic nations.
I'm not aware of any of Mohammed's references to Moses which would have been favorable to the Jews, when, in fact Moses was all about the Jews. He only referenced him and others, gleaning from them what suited him. He also, like Joseph Smith, referenced Biblical characters in order to lend some credence to his distortions as a scripture of sorts.
Certainly that strategy worked quite nicely for Johnny come lately scripture distorters like Mohammed and Joseph Smith. It shows right here at EvC, as some have cited that as favorable to Mohammed and his Koran. No doubt it is a significant factor in the conversion of Americans to Islam.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Edit an error about Esau's relationship to Jacob.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

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Replies to this message:
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Dirk
Member (Idle past 4023 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 216 of 657 (602567)
01-28-2011 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Buzsaw
01-28-2011 7:57 PM


Re: Explaining the Nuweiba Sea Bottom Topography
In order for the sea bed to wind dry and for the great multitude, including the animals, etc to get across, a significant amount of water would have built up upstream where the Jordan River flowed into the sea at it's inlet.
Ummm, Buzsaw, you might want to check up on your knowledge of the Near Eastern geography a little bit. First, the Jordan has never been more than a trickling stream compared to rivers in Europe or Asia; it's not the Amazon or something like that.
And second, and more to the point, the Jordan doesn't flow into the Red Sea, but into the Dead Sea... There was no water inlet on the northern side of the Red Sea.
Downstream the sea level would have waned some as the flow from the Jordan would have been shut off.
Wrong again. On the south side the Red Sea connects to the Gulf of Aden and from there to the Indian Ocean (which, in fact, is the only major water inlet of the Red Sea). There is plenty of water in there to keep the water level at the same elevation.
Edited by Dirk, : rewording
Edited by Dirk, : No reason given.
Edited by Dirk, : No reason given.
Edited by Dirk, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 217 of 657 (602571)
01-28-2011 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Buzsaw
01-28-2011 8:29 PM


Re: Reviewing The Evidence
More utter nonsense Buz.
The Exodus story IS included in the Qur'an. For example one part begins at 002:49,
quote:
002.049
YUSUFALI: And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
002.050
YUSUFALI: And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.
...
Moses is a major Prophet of Islam.
You tend to forget that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2011 8:29 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2011 9:57 PM jar has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 657 (602576)
01-28-2011 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Dirk
01-28-2011 8:39 PM


Re: Explaining the Nuweiba Sea Bottom Topography
Dirk writes:
In order for the sea bed to wind dry and for the great multitude, including the animals, etc to get across, a significant amount of water would have built up upstream where the Jordan River flowed into the sea at it's inlet.
Ummm, Buzsaw, you might want to check up on your knowledge of the Near Eastern geography a little bit. First, the Jordan has never been more than a trickling stream compared to rivers in Europe or Asia; it's not the Amazon or something like that.
And second, and more to the point, the Jordan doesn't flow into the Red Sea, but into the Dead Sea... There was no water inlet on the northern side of the Red Sea.
Downstream the sea level would have waned some as the flow from the Jordan would have been shut off.
Wrong again. On the south side the Red Sea connects to the Gulf of Aden and from there to the Indian Ocean (which, in fact, is the only major water inlet of the Red Sea). There is plenty of water in there to keep the water level at the same elevation.
I stand corrected on the North/South tsunami point and the Jordan. I didn't have my thinking cap on.
However, the back up from both North and South would have still been significant enough to cause extensive erosion, particularly from the middle where the greater pressure would have been from the deeper center from both directions. A tsunami of sorts would have been created.
Perhaps also, Jehovah, in order to make sure no one survived, released one direction ahead of the other so as to sweep the army into the deeper waters. This also would have buried the majority of them so as not to rise to the surface and escape.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 219 of 657 (602578)
01-28-2011 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Buzsaw
01-28-2011 9:31 PM


Re: Explaining the Nuweiba Sea Bottom Topography
However, the back up from both North and South would have still been significant enough to cause extensive erosion, particularly from the middle where the greater pressure would have been from the deeper center from both directions. A tsunami of sorts would have been created.
I'm sorry but do you have any evidence to support that? And do you also understand that most of the Gulf of Aqaba is even deeper then there, as deep as 1,850 meters deep?
The actual profile of the Gulf of Aqaba is exactly opposite of what you suggest.
Perhaps you are just making stuff up yet again?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2011 9:31 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 220 of 657 (602580)
01-28-2011 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
01-28-2011 8:57 PM


Re: Reviewing The Evidence
jar writes:
More utter nonsense Buz.
The Exodus story IS included in the Qur'an. For example one part begins at 002:49,
quote:
002.049
YUSUFALI: And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
002.050
YUSUFALI: And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.
...
Moses is a major Prophet of Islam.
You tend to forget that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God.
I checked the context of the quotes above. Nothing in these verses or in the context specifies the Jews or Jehovah. He refers to you and refers to them as the people of Moses and not the people of Jehovah. In lands where the Old Testament is forbidden, the ones reading this, not being aware of the OT scriptures would not likely equate the you to the Jews, nor as the people of the Biblical god, Jehovah.
Admittedly Americans and others in our time from nations having Bibles would be aware of more than those not having Bibles.
I'm quite sure that Saudi Arabia does not allow the propagation or dispersing of any part of the Bible in that nation. If you can show otherwise, I'd like to see your source.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 01-28-2011 8:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 221 of 657 (602581)
01-28-2011 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Buzsaw
01-28-2011 9:57 PM


Re: Reviewing The Evidence
Buzsaw writes:
jar writes:
More utter nonsense Buz.
The Exodus story IS included in the Qur'an. For example one part begins at 002:49,
quote:
002.049
YUSUFALI: And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
002.050
YUSUFALI: And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.
...
Moses is a major Prophet of Islam.
You tend to forget that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God.
I checked the context of the quotes above. Nothing in these verses or in the context specifies the Jews or Jehovah. He refers to you and refers to them as the people of Moses and not the people of Jehovah. In lands where the Old Testament is forbidden, the ones reading this, not being aware of the OT scriptures would not likely equate the you to the Jews, nor as the people of the Biblical god, Jehovah.
Admittedly Americans and others in our time from nations having Bibles would be aware of more than those not having Bibles.
I'm quite sure that Saudi Arabia does not allow the propagation or dispersing of any part of the Bible in that nation. If you can show otherwise, I'd like to see your source.
Allah is the God of the Bible Buz, Jehovah is simply a mistaken translation from German.
The story is about how Allah saved the Jews, the People of the Book.
If you like I will happily post more references to the Exodus in the Qur'an.
Since the Exodus is recorded in the Qur'an your point is refuted.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2011 9:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 222 of 657 (602583)
01-28-2011 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Buzsaw
01-28-2011 8:29 PM


Re: Reviewing The Evidence
Though Mohammed gleaned distorted doctrines that suited his concocted up scripture, he never acknowledged the Biblical god, Jehovah.
Jehovah is not the Biblical god, not as Jehovah which is nothing but an English corruption of the German spelling of the Hebrew YHWH.
The German spelling is Jahveh
Nor did he ever acknowledge Jehovah's favor-ability to Jacob and his 12 tribe sons who became the patriarchs of Israel over Esau, the son of Abraham's handmade, Hagar, from whom Israel's enemies descended.
Esau was Isaac's son and twin bother of Jacob, later called Israel. Hagar was Ismael's mother. And you claim to be a Bible Scholar?
Edited by bluescat48, : sp

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 223 of 657 (602584)
01-28-2011 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Buzsaw
01-28-2011 7:57 PM


Re: Explaining the Nuweiba Sea Bottom Topography
What the image does not show is what the crossing site was before the waters were separated long enough to dry up the crossing site, a great multitude of people and animals to cross and for Pharaoh's large army of chariots to enter the sea
What evidence do you have to support your assertion that "crossing site" was shallower in the past than it is today?
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2011 7:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 657 (602601)
01-29-2011 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by DrJones*
01-28-2011 10:46 PM


Re: Explaining the Nuweiba Sea Bottom Topography
DrJones* writes:
What the image does not show is what the crossing site was before the waters were separated long enough to dry up the crossing site, a great multitude of people and animals to cross and for Pharaoh's large army of chariots to enter the sea
What evidence do you have to support your assertion that "crossing site" was shallower in the past than it is today?
We have the debris and all of the corroborating observable evidence that I have cited supportive to the Biblical account of the event. We deduce from that the knowledge of the erosive energy of a tsunami wash back from the walls of water.
We also have significant evidence for the existence of the Biblical god, Jehovah such as the fulfilled prophecies, historical data and archeology, etc.
The notable Josephus is an example of a non-Biblical historian who acknowledges the Biblical flood event happening some 2500 years before his time.
Time and again I've cited these things. Yet to a person, you skeptics keep on keeping on harping that Buzsaw has never ever produced one iota of credible evidence for the Biblical record, the existence of the Biblical god, Jehovah and particularly the Exodus event. Time and time again ye skeptics keep on demanding that Buzsaw produce some evidence, as you have here, but when I do, it is all simply waived off.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 657 (602602)
01-29-2011 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by bluescat48
01-28-2011 10:44 PM


Re: Reviewing The Evidence
Yah, my bad. I got that all balled up. Gotta leave now. Will address it when I get back.

This message is a reply to:
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