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Author | Topic: Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Aurora Junior Member (Idle past 4696 days) Posts: 13 From: India Joined: |
I wonder why some Bible believer keep looking for "pretty good evidence" of the exodus and Noah's flood. Why don't they just say 'God wipe out the evidences to test our faith, and those who believe the word of God in spite of the absence of evidence are the True Believers". These True Believers may be the few who would enter the kingdom of God.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
The depth of the sea near the traditional Sinai is no where near as shallow as Nuweiba. Please show us this shallow crossing at Nuweiba. Here is a christian site that presents a very comprehensive refutation for Nuweiba.
quote:Source Any idea how deep 765 meters is? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Why don't they just say 'God wipe out the evidences to test our faith ... Many have used this argument in the past. The problem is that it leads to a conclusion by which the True Believer cannot abide. First, there is no "pretty good evidence" of an exodus. Indeed there is no evidence at all. This could be a god hiding things, but then writing them up, in such stark detail, in his little book? Not much of a test, I'm sure. More like myth embellished through the eons of telling. Now for the flood, not only is there no evidence of such a flood there is an abundance of conclusive evidence that such a flood did not occur. So this god would not only have to wipe out all the flood evidence it would also have to purposefully plant all the evidence leading to the conclusion that the flood did not happen. This, of course, would make their god a liar.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Theodoric writes: Please show us this shallow crossing at Nuweiba. Here is a christian site that presents a very comprehensive refutation for Nuweiba. LOL, Theodoric. What the image shows is what the crossing site is today. What the image does not show is what the crossing site was before the waters were separated long enough to dry up the crossing site, a great multitude of people and animals to cross and for Pharaoh's large army of chariots to enter the sea. In order for the sea bed to wind dry and for the great multitude, including the animals, etc to get across, a significant amount of water would have built up upstream where the Jordan River flowed into the sea at it's inlet. A significant amount of time would have passed. For the great multitude a relatively wide area would have been dried, leaving an extremely great depth of water upstream where the Jordan flowed in. . Then after Jehovah lifted the thick cloud preventing Pharaoh from moving was lifted there would have had to be significant time for the large army of pursuers to move up and to completely occupy the sea floor. Now, consider the North upstream wall of water and the South downstream wall. Upstream, the Gulf of Aqaba would have become significantly higher as the River Jordon flowed into it while the activity was going on at the crossing. Downstream the sea level would have waned some as the flow from the Jordan would have been shut off. The build up from the North side would have rendered the North depth higher than the South depth. What this would have created is a tsunami. We all know the power of water to erode. What one should expect to see today is precisely what the image shows; a deep cut in the middle of the crossing site as the North wall of water overpowered the south wall, effecting a North to south tsunami. The least affected would have been nearer to the shores as the deeper area of the sea above the site would have been where the erosion would have been the greatest. Likely this is why relatively few chariot parts and other things from the army remained as evidence relatively near the shore lines. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Percy writes: Were the Saudis confiscating Old Testaments? Or were they perhaps confiscating the normal western Bibles we're all familiar with that contain both Old and *New* Testaments? As Theodoric has been trying to explain to you, Moses is a revered figure in Islam. But Muslims would find the New Testament claim that Jesus is the son of God objectionable. The Koran even states at one point, "Allah is but one God. Allah forbid that he should have a son!" (4:171, look it up in you Koran). However, Islam does revere Jesus as a prophet. --Percy From what I've understood, no Bibles are allowed to be dispersed or preached in Saudi Arabia. Though Mohammed gleaned distorted doctrines that suited his concocted up scripture, he never acknowledged the Biblical god, Jehovah. Nor did he ever acknowledge Jehovah's favor-ability to Jacob and his 12 tribe sons who became the patriarchs of Israel over Esau, (ABE: Jacob's brother, who's descendents were the enemies of Israel.) Certainly, Saudi Arabia would have a vested interest in avoiding the Exodus, favorable to the Jews and all else relative to the Old Testament scriptures which were favorable to the Jews and unfavorable to the Islamic nations. I'm not aware of any of Mohammed's references to Moses which would have been favorable to the Jews, when, in fact Moses was all about the Jews. He only referenced him and others, gleaning from them what suited him. He also, like Joseph Smith, referenced Biblical characters in order to lend some credence to his distortions as a scripture of sorts. Certainly that strategy worked quite nicely for Johnny come lately scripture distorters like Mohammed and Joseph Smith. It shows right here at EvC, as some have cited that as favorable to Mohammed and his Koran. No doubt it is a significant factor in the conversion of Americans to Islam. Edited by Buzsaw, : Edit an error about Esau's relationship to Jacob. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
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Dirk Member (Idle past 4024 days) Posts: 84 Joined: |
In order for the sea bed to wind dry and for the great multitude, including the animals, etc to get across, a significant amount of water would have built up upstream where the Jordan River flowed into the sea at it's inlet. Ummm, Buzsaw, you might want to check up on your knowledge of the Near Eastern geography a little bit. First, the Jordan has never been more than a trickling stream compared to rivers in Europe or Asia; it's not the Amazon or something like that. And second, and more to the point, the Jordan doesn't flow into the Red Sea, but into the Dead Sea... There was no water inlet on the northern side of the Red Sea.
Downstream the sea level would have waned some as the flow from the Jordan would have been shut off.
Wrong again. On the south side the Red Sea connects to the Gulf of Aden and from there to the Indian Ocean (which, in fact, is the only major water inlet of the Red Sea). There is plenty of water in there to keep the water level at the same elevation. Edited by Dirk, : rewording Edited by Dirk, : No reason given. Edited by Dirk, : No reason given. Edited by Dirk, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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More utter nonsense Buz.
The Exodus story IS included in the Qur'an. For example one part begins at 002:49,
quote: Moses is a major Prophet of Islam. You tend to forget that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Dirk writes: In order for the sea bed to wind dry and for the great multitude, including the animals, etc to get across, a significant amount of water would have built up upstream where the Jordan River flowed into the sea at it's inlet. Ummm, Buzsaw, you might want to check up on your knowledge of the Near Eastern geography a little bit. First, the Jordan has never been more than a trickling stream compared to rivers in Europe or Asia; it's not the Amazon or something like that. And second, and more to the point, the Jordan doesn't flow into the Red Sea, but into the Dead Sea... There was no water inlet on the northern side of the Red Sea.
Downstream the sea level would have waned some as the flow from the Jordan would have been shut off.
Wrong again. On the south side the Red Sea connects to the Gulf of Aden and from there to the Indian Ocean (which, in fact, is the only major water inlet of the Red Sea). There is plenty of water in there to keep the water level at the same elevation. I stand corrected on the North/South tsunami point and the Jordan. I didn't have my thinking cap on. However, the back up from both North and South would have still been significant enough to cause extensive erosion, particularly from the middle where the greater pressure would have been from the deeper center from both directions. A tsunami of sorts would have been created. Perhaps also, Jehovah, in order to make sure no one survived, released one direction ahead of the other so as to sweep the army into the deeper waters. This also would have buried the majority of them so as not to rise to the surface and escape. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
However, the back up from both North and South would have still been significant enough to cause extensive erosion, particularly from the middle where the greater pressure would have been from the deeper center from both directions. A tsunami of sorts would have been created. I'm sorry but do you have any evidence to support that? And do you also understand that most of the Gulf of Aqaba is even deeper then there, as deep as 1,850 meters deep? The actual profile of the Gulf of Aqaba is exactly opposite of what you suggest. Perhaps you are just making stuff up yet again? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
jar writes: More utter nonsense Buz. The Exodus story IS included in the Qur'an. For example one part begins at 002:49,
quote: Moses is a major Prophet of Islam. You tend to forget that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God. I checked the context of the quotes above. Nothing in these verses or in the context specifies the Jews or Jehovah. He refers to you and refers to them as the people of Moses and not the people of Jehovah. In lands where the Old Testament is forbidden, the ones reading this, not being aware of the OT scriptures would not likely equate the you to the Jews, nor as the people of the Biblical god, Jehovah. Admittedly Americans and others in our time from nations having Bibles would be aware of more than those not having Bibles. I'm quite sure that Saudi Arabia does not allow the propagation or dispersing of any part of the Bible in that nation. If you can show otherwise, I'd like to see your source. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Buzsaw writes: jar writes: More utter nonsense Buz. The Exodus story IS included in the Qur'an. For example one part begins at 002:49,
quote: Moses is a major Prophet of Islam. You tend to forget that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God. I checked the context of the quotes above. Nothing in these verses or in the context specifies the Jews or Jehovah. He refers to you and refers to them as the people of Moses and not the people of Jehovah. In lands where the Old Testament is forbidden, the ones reading this, not being aware of the OT scriptures would not likely equate the you to the Jews, nor as the people of the Biblical god, Jehovah. Admittedly Americans and others in our time from nations having Bibles would be aware of more than those not having Bibles. I'm quite sure that Saudi Arabia does not allow the propagation or dispersing of any part of the Bible in that nation. If you can show otherwise, I'd like to see your source. Allah is the God of the Bible Buz, Jehovah is simply a mistaken translation from German. The story is about how Allah saved the Jews, the People of the Book. If you like I will happily post more references to the Exodus in the Qur'an. Since the Exodus is recorded in the Qur'an your point is refuted. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
Though Mohammed gleaned distorted doctrines that suited his concocted up scripture, he never acknowledged the Biblical god, Jehovah.
Jehovah is not the Biblical god, not as Jehovah which is nothing but an English corruption of the German spelling of the Hebrew YHWH. The German spelling is Jahveh
Nor did he ever acknowledge Jehovah's favor-ability to Jacob and his 12 tribe sons who became the patriarchs of Israel over Esau, the son of Abraham's handmade, Hagar, from whom Israel's enemies descended. Esau was Isaac's son and twin bother of Jacob, later called Israel. Hagar was Ismael's mother. And you claim to be a Bible Scholar? Edited by bluescat48, : sp There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2284 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
What the image does not show is what the crossing site was before the waters were separated long enough to dry up the crossing site, a great multitude of people and animals to cross and for Pharaoh's large army of chariots to enter the sea
What evidence do you have to support your assertion that "crossing site" was shallower in the past than it is today? Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given. It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
DrJones* writes: What the image does not show is what the crossing site was before the waters were separated long enough to dry up the crossing site, a great multitude of people and animals to cross and for Pharaoh's large army of chariots to enter the sea
What evidence do you have to support your assertion that "crossing site" was shallower in the past than it is today? We have the debris and all of the corroborating observable evidence that I have cited supportive to the Biblical account of the event. We deduce from that the knowledge of the erosive energy of a tsunami wash back from the walls of water. We also have significant evidence for the existence of the Biblical god, Jehovah such as the fulfilled prophecies, historical data and archeology, etc. The notable Josephus is an example of a non-Biblical historian who acknowledges the Biblical flood event happening some 2500 years before his time. Time and again I've cited these things. Yet to a person, you skeptics keep on keeping on harping that Buzsaw has never ever produced one iota of credible evidence for the Biblical record, the existence of the Biblical god, Jehovah and particularly the Exodus event. Time and time again ye skeptics keep on demanding that Buzsaw produce some evidence, as you have here, but when I do, it is all simply waived off. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Yah, my bad. I got that all balled up. Gotta leave now. Will address it when I get back.
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