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Member (Idle past 5114 days) Posts: 651 From: Jareth's labyrinth Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Abortion questions...? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
We all know the responsibilities involving having sex, but too many want to be absolved from them by killing the life which their irresponsibility has brought to be. If someone was irresponsible at simply buying condoms and having unprotected sex, why on earth would you want such a person to care for a child? It's like you're saying, "Hey, you're an idiot who's still living life carelessly without concerns for yourself or others, how 'bout you take care of this tiny, helpless baby. Good luck." Wonder why there's so much crime, poverty, drug abuse, homelessness, poorly educated people who can't get jobs and are a burden on the rest of us? Idiots are continously having kids, neglecting them and going about their lives over populating society with less-than-average individuals. If we can't stop ourselves from having sex (which we are not) then, IMO, they should at least moderately control the amount of births per year by promoting abortion as a logical option, especially to teenagers in high school, and most importantly, to college students. We don't need this many people...we really don't. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
there are legal homicides, this is one of them.
True. But if you equate abortion with homicide, then you'll also have to include birth control methods as homicidal methods, to stay consistent. It's all working at the cellular level.
I do not see why some feel it is fine to force women to be pregnant.
And only within the US borders. They want laws set up to only control the choices of Americans. If you're from another country, no one cares what happens to your kid, fetus, or sperm cells. Esp. if you're skin is dark.
The world hunger problem: Facts, figures and statistics quote: Looking at these global numbers really trumps the 900,000 legally administered abortions that occur per year. These are living human beings that can barely survive, why continue to flood the earth with more unwanted humans under these conditions? - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
if there are those that prevent implantation, then i think that is an abortion too. So would you call that method of birth control a homicidal method?
I am not sure. preventing life from occuring (conception), is not consistent with destroying a life that already exists. It is all life, at different stages. They're all the same cells at one particular stage of the process or another. If the destruction of one set of sells is ok, why isn't the other set of cells ok to destroy? From a more religious perspective, if it's a soul you're destroying, wouldn't the sperm and the egg both be carrying half the soul? Wouldn't destroying sperm and eggs be the same a destroying half a human soul every single time? How many half-human souls have been lost during the course of the average male's life? Or female's life? I'm just trying to find some consistency here. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Since you think it is ok to abort a foetus, does it mean it is ok to kill you ? We are not talking about aborting a fetus. We're not at that stage of development yet in this discussion. At the stage we were discussing, a sperm cell and a zygote are practically the same thing, just a combination of two haploids. We're talking about not caring at all if we destroy a haploid cell(sperm) but caring beyond reasonable conversation for destroying a diploid cell(zygote). Is there really a difference? - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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And how does soul mathematics work in the case of twins?
You just blew my fucking mind! - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Where did you get that number from?
Here quote: Where did you get your numbers from?
15 million children die of starvation each year in the world. That comes out to about 28 per minute if my math is correct. Pretty sad, right? What was your point here?
So your numbers are a little out of whack.
Hardly... - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
The reasoning you were using was: ''If it is ok to kill one set of cells, why isn't it ok to kill another set of cells?'' I was only trying to keep AE consistent in his thinking. If a haploid is ok to destroy with zero reservations, shouldn't a zygote be destroyed with zero reservations? It's literally the same thing. AE said he felt destroying a zygote was homicide, so I asked if he felt destroying a haploid was too since they are the same thing. He said "no," and that made very little sense to me.
Now, I perfectly understand that you are arguing that there are no reasons to put the line between the two haploids and the zygote. But you have to put a line somewhere, and since this is a continuum, it is not sufficient to look ''before'' and ''after'' the line, see negligeable differences, and therefore argue the line cannot be put there.
That's fine, put the line somewhere, but to me it seemed silly to put the line between two haploids and a zygote, when it is exactly the same thing. At least there, the line should not be. We can argue where it should be from that point forward, but it makes no sense to put it where AE had it. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
They believe that abortion is murdering a human soul. But shouldn't they then be able to explain exactly when the soul enters the situation? Ringo was more specific a few posts above, so maybe you cold help us understand when exactly does the soul come into play - do the sperm and egg have half each? What happens for twins? Is it when the zygote is formed that God implants it? Embryo? Fetus? When it is actually born? During whatever religious ritual that takes place after birth? (ie. a baptism, etc.) If there was an exact time when it does happen, it would help to know that. Anything before would be an acceptable time to terminate, and everything after could be off limits. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
AGI
Then they are wrong. Also, please provide the link, as I did. In any case, the CDC trumps whatever is said on AGI since they are the official government entity that works specifically to gather the numbers.
You did notice in your quote that there are 3 states in the US that do not report abortions. You did also notice that the reporting is voluntary. Yes, so then ask yourself at that point, how on earth could AGI have those extra numbers if they weren't reported to the CDC? That's a load of crap. Perhaps they're just making crap up?
Yet you used the smallest number you could find for abortions and then only used the numbers for the US less those who do not report.
Well if you followed my point, it was concerning people in the US that want to control only abortions in the US. But, have no concern for anyone else outside of our borders. So they aren't PRO-LIFE, they are hypocrites who are only pro-control of US citizens. My point was also to show that there should be a greater global concern for living human beings who are dying of starvation and malnutrition, who's numbers (both children and adult combined) reach the billions, rather than being concerned with 820,000 abortions that are done legally and by choice. No one is making the choice to die of starvation or malnutrition, those people need help -vs- an adult who makes an actual legal choice concerning their own body.
Worldwide the numbers I find for abortions range from 42 million to 48 million per year. And yet pro-life people are only concerned in controlling the 820,000 that take place in the US. You're all a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites. There are more people starving to death in Africa alone than abortions in the US. If you are really pro-life, then you should be pro-ALL life. Also, think about what the global starvation numbers are - why should we continue to add more unwanted human beings to that number?
Simple you were trying to make abortions look like a lot less took place than those that starve to death each year. And they are, because your only concern is with the 820,000 that take place in the US. Yet you show no concern in the media for those living human beings globally that die each year from simply not having something to eat. Your priorities are ridiculous and you should be ashamed.
28 children dying from starvation every minute is atrocious.
Yes, now to that add the adults that die each year.
We could argue about when life begins to try to justify abortion but that is a fruitless argument.
No it is not, it is a stupid argument because life never stops existing. Maybe you can take up the question of when the soul arrives - do the sperm and egg(haploids) have half each? Does it form when they unite to form a zygote? Further down the line when it becomes an embryo? A fetus? At birth? When exactly? Some say conception. Ok, but if it's when the zygote forms, then all you have is two haploids that are sperm and egg, so the destruction of the sperm and egg would also be viewed as bad...but it is not. So where is the consistency here? There is no consistency from your side of the argument. But hopefully, as easy as you understood complex physics and cosmology without ever taking any courses in it, you can figure this out for us. It should be very easy for a man of your genius.- Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
For what? For religious beliefs? Come on...
Well, yeah... If they are claiming there is a soul, but that condoms are ok, it seems inconsistent if they can't specifically explain when, during the reproduction process, the soul comes into play. How do they know sperm cells or eggs don't have a soul? Maybe they do and they're advocating the killing of a soul by supporting birth control.
A common christian belief is that life begins at conception. I suppose its that since "a life" would require a soul, then the soul begins at conception. Which is where it gets complicated. If the soul begins at the union of two haploids, then you'd have to believe that half of the soul is in the sperm cell and the egg. At which point, soul's are being destroyed through birth control methods. To stay consistent you would have to oppose both.
Yeah, this posses a conundrum for twins. I guess its just magic Maybe the soul becomes two souls.
Chris Angel does it! - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Fidelity in mariages, abstinence for underage people, preservatives for the others (which means unmarried adults). This is only prevative maintenance. What would really need to happen is support for the single mothers AFTER the child is born. This is when they need it most, and this is exactly the time when those who are pro-life stop caring or showing any effort in trying to help. Just look at this site and the arguments presented when it comes to welfare, free healthcare, free schooling, help with housing, employment, etc. No one gives a shit, that's truth. Everyone wants to be self-righteous and act concerned for a fetus, until that fetus is born to a single mom, living in poverty, without a job and no education. At which point, everyone who cared turns their back, including the government. So what's a single mom to do at that point? When everyone could careless.
In fact, if I remember correctly, this is the 'formula' that the pope is trying to promote in africa You remember very incorrectly, as the Pope always was against birth control methods, including condoms, and actually increased the spread of HIV/AIDS in sub-saharan Africa. He has now softened up a bit after so many complained about his anti-condom rhetoric. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
As of right now, only the use of preservatives is focused on You'd be shocked to find out that in the US it is not.
Source quote: More than half teach abstinance only, only 21 states have condoms in the schools for availability, and the on going debate in those schools from the parents is to get rid of them. So no, there is no real focus on condoms.
while abstinence is laughed at You are trying to subdue natural, biological effects of puberty...that is to be laughed at.
We have all those things here in Quebec But that doesn't help us here in the US. And I'm sure Canada would hate if we sent them all of our single moms.
yet, the ones who do care for the single mom who would like to keep here children are the pro-life.
Yeah, but you could care less about the child once it is born. It's ok to admit that, I openly admit it too. I don't care about other people's children to the point of wanting to involve myself in their lives to help them, no one does. Like with Haiti. Sure, I sent money after the earthquake, we all did. But no one ever gave a shit about Haiti a week before the earthquake, when they REALLY needed the money to build a normal society that wouldn't fall apart during a quake. How much did you send to Haiti before the earthquake? Zero. Sure, we can all get on our self-righteous high horse and show concern for Haiti after the quake, when it was trendy to do so. But if someone came to me/you/anyone 5 years ago asking for money to build an infrastructure in Haiti, we would have told them to fuck off. As we do for every other country. Some honesty, at least, and consistency, please, because we are all, for the most part, centered around our own lives. We are only concerned superficially. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I don't think that's reasonable. What's next? The physics of the burning bush!? If it happened today, right in front of you, would you assume supernatural forces, or would you do science to try and figure it out? I'm just tryin' to do some sciencin' here, dude. These are claimed as fact, by those who believe it. So some proof might be nice, they would vote against it for christ sake.
Really, we're talking about religious speculations here, not a conclusion based on factual information. Cool, I agree.
The soul could be nonexistent before the union of the two haploids, or it could exist as a whole but not be subscribed to the individual yet. Or there could be no soul at all; we just don't know. There is no evidence in either case and that was the point I was trying to make. More to the point though, it is evidencially not murder or immoral to destroy a daploid cell any more than it would be murder or immoral to destroy a haploid cell when you masterbate, or pull out, or have a wet dream. Which, as you see, many here claimed the former is murder and immoral but not the latter, when they are literally the same thing. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Every human pulsion has to be positively directed, just because these are sexual pulsions doesn't give them the green light. But as you can see by the evidence, "directing" your sexual pulsions is not something the majority of humans can do. Behavior -vs- genetics: genetics always wins.
My christian community (less than a thousand people) had already invested over 1 million dollars in haiti well before the earthquake, in a span of ten years. We built a medical center over there, and are still working on multiple projects. I myself put all my money into it when I was 16, went there and helped the project. We sustain financially an orphanage, amongst other things.
Fair enough, I'll take your word for it, but this is not the norm. The norm is to allow Haiti to become what Haiti was and is currently today. Along with Haiti, many other countries suffer the same conditions, and very little concern is ever given. Because, we just can't. There is a reality that somethings are just not do-able. Given these conditions throughout the world, why bring unwanted children, or children that can't be taken care of, financially or otherwise, to this planet?
I care about human lives, don't try to apply your own selfishness on me. We are all selfish, some just pretend not to be to please the sky daddy. But I wonder if you didn't believe he was up there, would you still behave the same? - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Honestly, I'd probably assume supernatural forces. But that's neither here nor there.
I know, I was just jokingly trying to bring up old points that dragged on in the supernatural threads. I failed.
I think its pointless to try to do some sciencin' on people's religious speculations about things that we don't even have evidence for in the first place. Perhaps, I wouldn't say it's completely pointless in all cases. If someone makes a claim like, "A zygote has a soul," it's only fair that I'm allowed to probe that claim a bit. Especially if someone is using it as their reason for not supporting 1st trimester abortions. But I get what you mean.
And actually, we can't even pinpoint when conception takes place. Like everything else, there's some gradualness to it. Which, to me, should suggest some gradualness to the emergence of a soul. Again though, that's neither here nor there. True, but then why even suggest a soul if there is no way to pinpoint it, or even, when conception takes place? It shouldn't even come up in the discussion of when it is and when it is not safe to abort. The best way to approach that, would be to go with the concensus from the medical community. That way no one probes into the soul issue and there is no need to require evidence from people of faith - who, as you admit, can't show any evidence for what they claim.
If they were literally the same thing, there wouldn't be two different words to describe them True, true. I'll say it better then: They are practically the same thing.
I think its more about potential. A haploid cannot become a person, and thus have a soul, while the diploid can.
I don't follow this. Doesn't a haploid have the same potential to be a person as a daploid? If my memory serves me right, isn't that potential the reason why condoms were (and pretty much still are) considered a sin in the Catholic faith? - Oni
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