Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,484 Year: 3,741/9,624 Month: 612/974 Week: 225/276 Day: 1/64 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evolving the Musculoskeletal System
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 357 of 527 (586508)
10-13-2010 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Strongbow
10-13-2010 8:56 AM


Re: Entropy
Yes, I mean at the nucleotide level. I'm not even close to following things at the atomic and molecular level.... I've always had to work hard at chemistry!
Enzymes that repair DNA usually require a cofactor. These cofactors are usually energetic molecules like ATP or NADH that are produced by the active metabolism of the cell (which is derived from the energetic oxygen in the atmosphere which has been derived from energetic photons from the sun). So in keeping with the 2 LoT it does require energy input into the system to decrease entropy and that energy can all be traced back to the massive amounts of energy being deposited on the Earth by the Sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Strongbow, posted 10-13-2010 8:56 AM Strongbow has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by barbara, posted 10-26-2010 2:13 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 383 of 527 (599326)
01-06-2011 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by ICdesign
01-06-2011 3:04 PM


Re: Discussion Requires Responding to Arguments
This is such an astonishing system with such a high level of intelligence throughout the entire design you have to infer an intelligent mind constructed it for the purpose of allowing sight.
How did you determine that there was a "high level of intelligence"? What is the test for this?
The odds of such a construction arising without the assistance of an intelligent mind are astronomical.
Can we see these calculations please?
The true test needed is one that can prove such a design can develop without the assistance of intelligence.
Can you please describe the test that you used to determine that an intelligence was involved?
Oh please. It is only accepted by those who don't want to be accountable to God.
Millions of christian biologists across the globe would disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by ICdesign, posted 01-06-2011 3:04 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by ICdesign, posted 01-06-2011 3:26 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 385 of 527 (599334)
01-06-2011 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by ICdesign
01-06-2011 3:26 PM


Re: Discussion Requires Responding to Arguments
...and the endless argument goes on and on and on and on and on.........
You could put an end to it by supplying the tests you used to determine that an intelligence was involved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by ICdesign, posted 01-06-2011 3:26 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 389 of 527 (599361)
01-06-2011 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by Percy
01-06-2011 4:03 PM


Re: Discussion Requires Responding to Arguments
And your point still reveals a deep misunderstanding of how evolution works. No intent is required for mutations to be either deleterious or beneficial, and here's a simple example illustrating why.
Or to use a non-biological analogy, there need be no intent on the part of the ping pong balls in order for someone to win the lottery. It's not as if the ping pong balls got together and decided who was going to win.
However, IDers project intent where doesn't exist. They have decided that the odds of John Smith were so astronomical that there had to be intent within the system in order for John Smith to win. What they ignore is all of the losers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Percy, posted 01-06-2011 4:03 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 404 of 527 (599431)
01-07-2011 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by ICdesign
01-07-2011 12:05 PM


feedback? approval or disapproval? How is this not reasoning ability?
In what way do we observe a reasoning ability in the OBSERVED process of natural selection?
Do we need an outside entity with reasoning ability in order for the slowest elk to be eaten by wolves at a higher rate than the fastest elk? Do we need an outside entity with reasoning in order to find the mutations that confer bacterial resistance, or do we just need mutating bacteria and antibiotics in order for these mutations to reach dominance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by ICdesign, posted 01-07-2011 12:05 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 413 of 527 (599459)
01-07-2011 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by ICdesign
01-07-2011 1:33 PM


All you guys seem to be talking about survival of the fittest for up and running, fully developed creatures.
Like Percy states above, there is no such thing as a "not fully formed" organism. Secondly, of course we are focusing on up and running organisms. Dead organisms do not evolve.
This whole "self-improvement" program the ToE adheres to is bogus in what would be an impersonal, purposeless and wholly material universe anyway.
What tests did you run to determine that natural selection is bogus?
It should be mentioned here that even among evolutionary theorists there remains widespread disagreement.
Such a statement usually warrants a description of what scientists disagree on. Scientists do agree that natural selection is a real and viable mechanism. So what exactly is this disagreement over?
Because one offspring survives instead of another may not mean it has greater evolutionary potential. The lucky chicken that survived the hungry fox's nocturnal raid on the chicken coop may well have been suffering from insomnia on that night. Survival of the fittest thus becomes "survival of those that survive," which doesn't tell us a great deal.
Populations evolve, not individuals. On average, the less fit do have fewer offspring than the more fit. This can be predicted beforehand, before a population is challenged by selective pressure. To use an oft cited example, you can predict beforehand that dark moths will survive at a higher rate than light moths in an environment where the trees are themselves dark. What this tells us is that ratios of alleles will change in response to environmental pressures. How is this not important information?
But now lets paint a more accurate analogy of reality and take away Mr. Chances brain all together. No thought. Nothing but a blank screen. What are his chances of building anything now? Zero right? It would be completely impossible.
Then your analogy is a poor one since we observe organisms without brains evolving in real time. We see random mutations that confer antibiotic resistance spreading through populations by evolutionary mechanisms minus any brains. You have just admitted that your analogy is irrelevant to biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by ICdesign, posted 01-07-2011 1:33 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 480 of 527 (599788)
01-10-2011 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by ICdesign
01-10-2011 11:48 AM


Righting a simulation based on known laws of physics is one thing. A program written on a computer that produces an antenna after a bunch a brilliant scientists imput a bunch of information does nothing to prove that evolution was capable of producing complex systems that perform meaningful purposes.
Those brilliant scientists did not input the design for the antenna. That is the whole point. They simulated the blind and unintelligent process of evolution and what this process produced was the antenna. This is no different than simulating the blind and unintelligent process of gravity to predict the best orbit for a satellite.
We know in the real world that you cannot achieve building a complex system without the aid of intelligence.
We know no such thing. No intelligence is needed to produce the complex weather systems seen on Earth. No intelligence is needed to produce antibiotic resistance in bacteria through random changes in proteins. No intelligence is needed during the 9 month development of a human embryo from a single cell to a fully functioning human baby. We observe complex systems spontaneously forming throughout nature all of the time without any input from an intelligence.
Just because water gathered in a hole from rain storms doesn't prove anything other than it rained. That is called subjective purpose.
So are the purposes you are assigning to biological systems.
The heart has an objective purpose. It has the obvious sole purpose of pumping blood to the body and that is all it does.
That is the heart's function. Purpose and function are separate things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by ICdesign, posted 01-10-2011 11:48 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 491 of 527 (599915)
01-11-2011 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by ICdesign
01-11-2011 2:32 PM


A computer generated the design.
What did the computer generate the design from?
Evolution does not have a computer.
But it does have life that competes for limited resources which is all that evolution needs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by ICdesign, posted 01-11-2011 2:32 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by ICdesign, posted 01-11-2011 3:36 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 496 of 527 (599923)
01-11-2011 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 493 by ICdesign
01-11-2011 3:36 PM


A program designed by intelligent people.
Nowhere in the program did it detail the design of the antenna. Try again.
This designs nothing. This builds nothing.
You have been taught about the birds and the bees, haven't you?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 493 by ICdesign, posted 01-11-2011 3:36 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 500 of 527 (599939)
01-11-2011 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 492 by ICdesign
01-11-2011 3:33 PM


Yes, but when you are talking about the development of existence you have to start at the beginning of that existence do you not. That is why I include it.
We are not talking about the development of existence. We are talking about the production of biodiversity.
No, gravity is not a theory, its a fact.
Gravity is both a theory and a fact, just like evolution. There are the facts of gravity for which the theory of gravity is the explanation. We observe that masses are attracted to one another which is the fact. We use the theory of gravity (of which there are two) to explain why masses are attracted to each other.
In the same way, we observe that life changes through time and shares a common ancestor. This is the fact of evolution. The theory of evolution explains why this occurred, which is through the mechanisms of evolution.
Micro- Evolution is based on observed science.
Macro-Evolution is nothing more that a theory (an unproven guess)
Theory is as high as it gets in science.
You claim their are no incomplete systems because an organism cannot survive with an incomplete system, correct?
There is no such thing as an incomplete system just as there is no such thing as an incomplete mountain range or an incomplete canyon. Biology, like geology, is in constant flux.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by ICdesign, posted 01-11-2011 3:33 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 510 of 527 (600088)
01-12-2011 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 501 by ICdesign
01-11-2011 6:40 PM


This explanation of how extremely complex systems could evolve is just foolishness, plain and simple.
Based on what evidence?
First of all, we would see the evidence of this process throughout the fossil record and we see no such thing.
What evidence are you looking for? Be specific.
Second of all, any system such as the first circulatory system has to be complete with the pipelines to every location, the heart fully developed and so-forth.
However, the pipelines can have function without a heart as others have pointed out. On top of that, an ineffecient cirulatory system can be supported by simple diffusion across the skin as seen in many organisms. A heart would just improve the system, and therefore be selected for.
It is examples like this which make your claims irrelevant. You simply know too little about biology to make judgements of what is silly and what is not. A Zoology 101 course would do wonders.
You guys (evolutionists) have built such a maze of smoke and mirrors there is just no way you will ever be capable of seeing the simple truth shy of the Holy Spirit opening your eyes.
So says the guy who proposes magical poofing.
I said before how the truth is so simple a child can see it.
Sadly, you have the understanding of a child. You need to grow up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by ICdesign, posted 01-11-2011 6:40 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 515 of 527 (600213)
01-13-2011 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by Percy
01-12-2011 6:42 PM


Re: The Beginnings of Bone
So the earliest examples of skeletons in the fossil record were very, very simple, but we know very little about these organisms.
The earliest chordates had no bones, such as Haikouella:
Haikouella - Wikipedia
Connective tissue is all that is needed. No bones.
In modern vertebrates like us we start with the same non-calciferous notochord as an embryo that later develops into the bony vertebral column.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Percy, posted 01-12-2011 6:42 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024