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Author Topic:   Birds and Reptiles
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 135 (598466)
12-31-2010 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by caffeine
09-24-2010 4:30 AM


What's Good For Goose Disallowed For Gander
caffeine writes:
People came up with the idea that birds evolved from dinosaurs because of the many features that birds share with dinosaurs.........
I have long argued that dinos are the pre-fallen/cursed/changed longer legged modern serpent kinds, i.e. reptiles, as per the Genesis record.
I point out the many features that dinos share with modern reptiles.
My reference to the similarities is consistently rejected by you people. This is a good example of evidence which you consider legitimate in science but disallow as evidence for creationists.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by caffeine, posted 09-24-2010 4:30 AM caffeine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-31-2010 9:21 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 40 by jar, posted 12-31-2010 9:27 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 41 by PaulK, posted 12-31-2010 10:34 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 135 (598488)
12-31-2010 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by PaulK
12-31-2010 10:34 AM


Re: Comparing Similarities
PaulK writes:
But not the differences which convince taxonomists that snakes are NOT descended from dinosaurs at all. Nor do we ignore the fossil evidence contradicting your hypothesis - as you do.
There you go, obfuscating my position. I've explained this before more than once, but I'll explain it again.
Dinos are reptiles.
Snakes are reptiles.
Serpents are reptiles
The only word in the manuscripts of the Genesis record for snakes, dinos, lizards, iguanas, alligators etc is serpent.
Appearances of heads, tails etc share a common appearance.
Bottom line; the similarities of modern reptiles and dino reptiles are extremely more numerous than the similarities of birds and dinos, yet (abe: the conventional science world disallows the more similar types). This is why the less likely hypotheses are funded, taught, peered and researched in the science arena.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Noted in context.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by PaulK, posted 12-31-2010 10:34 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by DrJones*, posted 12-31-2010 1:58 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 46 by Blue Jay, posted 12-31-2010 3:49 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 12-31-2010 4:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 135 (598499)
12-31-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by DrJones*
12-31-2010 1:58 PM


Re: Comparing Similarities
Dr Jones writes:
Buz, what is "the SM"?
Thanks for the heads up, Dr Jones. It was a poor choice of word terminology on my part. I have edited a correction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by DrJones*, posted 12-31-2010 1:58 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 135 (598522)
12-31-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Blue Jay
12-31-2010 3:49 PM


Re: Comparing Similarities And Differences
Bluejay writes:
Birds and dinosaurs share similar limb configurations, postures, feathers, jaws, wrist bones, scales and scutes, etc.
The only thing I can think of in which dinosaurs are more like modern reptiles than birds is that they have long tails. Everything else that dinosaurs and modern reptiles have in common, they also have in common with birds.
Interestingly, the first thing that came to your mind is what the Genesis record predicted, the long legged reptilian i.e. serpent being cursed to have it's descendants being hatched with shorter legs rendering it a belly creeping creature. (Belly being relative to length of legs and/or no legs.
  1. Dinos and most modern reptiles are oviparous, producing eggs that hatch outside of the body.
  2. Crocodiles have similar abdominal ribs to dinosaurs.
  3. no fur
  4. both reptiles whereas birds are not.
  5. both land dwellers, unlike birds
    Imo, dinos were the fall guy, so to speak for the ancestors of birds for lack of something else in that conventional palentologists (counter to the Genesis record) predated reptiles before dinos.
  6. small similar appearing heads and swishy tails, unlike birds.
    Biblical record cites curse as reason for leg differences and size
  7. Both cohabited whereas birds did not, according to conventional paleontology but not according to the Genesis record.
  8. Both had teeth and more similar bone structures unlike birds
  9. Overall appearance of lizards, crocks, iguanas, etc more resemble dinos than birds.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Blue Jay, posted 12-31-2010 3:49 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Blue Jay, posted 12-31-2010 11:35 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 53 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-31-2010 11:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 54 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2011 12:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 135 (598547)
01-01-2011 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Blue Jay
12-31-2010 11:35 PM


Re: Comparing Similarities And Differences
Bluejay writes:
Birds are reptiles.
Bluejay, by and large (I say by and large), I maintain that my points are valid. That one dino is considered bird doesn't mean birds are generally considered reptiles. More objectively, from what I've read, the consensus is that they descended from dinos.
My position that the Biblical record is correct would require many adjustments to the changed physique such as the flattened croc and gater heads, the rear claw in the foot for grasping smaller things, the leg structure, etc.
It would have been a major adjustment. Conclusion: there are not more similarities, by and large, of birds/dinos than reptiles/dinos. It's all assumed to accomodate evolution.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Blue Jay, posted 12-31-2010 11:35 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 01-01-2011 9:36 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-01-2011 9:39 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 61 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2011 3:29 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 71 by Blue Jay, posted 01-02-2011 1:09 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 135 (598687)
01-01-2011 8:21 PM


Re: Are Birds Dinosaurs?
Dinos and modern reptiles whereas birds are not. - Debatable
Dinos are reptiles , unlike birds - Debatable
Both cohabited whereas birds did not, Both had teeth and more similar bone structures unlike birds - Debatable
Overall appearance of lizards, crocks, iguanas, etc more resemble dinos than birds. By observation? Yes. Ask anybody on the street to look at lizards, iguanas, gators and crocks whether these by and large look more like dinos, both having swishy tails and similar looking heads than most birds and they will say that they do.
Digits of birds and theropod dinosaurs found to be non-homologous. What has been assumed for the last two decades by prominent paleontologists turns out to be questionable, as is so often the case in the conventional science arena.
Homologies of digits in the avian hand have been debated for 150 years. Cladistic analysis nests birds with theropod dinosaurs. Theropod hands retain only digits I-II-III, so digits of the modern bird hand are often identified as I-II-III. Study of the developing manus and pes in amniote embryos, including a variety of avian species, shows stereotyped patterns of cartilage condensations. A primary axis of cartilage condensation is visible in all species that runs through the humerus into digit IV. Comparison to serially homologous elements of the hindlimb indicates that the retained digits of the avian hand are II-III-IV.
Too often scientists see what they want to see
OSU research on avian biology and physiology has been raising questions on this issue since the 1990s, often in isolation. More scientists and other studies are now challenging the same premise, Ruben said. The old theories were popular, had public appeal and many people saw what they wanted to see instead of carefully interpreting the data, he said.
Pesky new fossils . . . sharply at odds with conventional wisdom never seem to cease popping up, Ruben wrote in his PNAS commentary. Given the vagaries of the fossil record, current notions of near resolution of many of the most basic questions about long-extinct forms should probably be regarded with caution.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Panda, posted 01-01-2011 9:00 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 64 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2011 9:07 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 65 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2011 9:15 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 74 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2011 5:17 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 135 (598702)
01-01-2011 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by arachnophilia
01-01-2011 9:15 PM


Re: the dinosaur with four wings
arach... writes:
it's impossible to look at this animal and think "slow cold blooded lizard."
In the Wyoming Rocky Mtn region where I grew up and on the desert I've seen some really fast little miniature somewhat dino looking lizzards which dart around likity split.
Assuming the accuracy of the Biblical record, the dino reptiles pre-flood would have likely been very lively, given the perfect warm climate that is implicated before the flood changed things.
Perhaps I missed it but what about the study which I cited about the non-homogeneous digits of dino & bird?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2011 9:15 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 10:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 68 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2011 11:34 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 72 by Nuggin, posted 01-02-2011 1:38 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 135 (598776)
01-02-2011 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by PaulK
01-02-2011 5:17 AM


Re: Are Birds Dinosaurs?
PaulK writes:
........we would do better to use modern experts who ARE fully aware of the evidence - and THEY generally classify birds as dinosaurs.
Or, perhaps better, aware of the evidence that they want to see, as one of the cites linked puts it. I have long regarded this the case with a lot of evidence, for example, the evidence of the Exodus event and other Biblical data which has been cited.
PaulK writes:
There's plenty of reason to think that both birds and snakes cohabited with dinosaurs (and without your ad hoc additions to the Bible.........
As I said that's debatable. That debate is ongoing on the www science cites. Check it out.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2011 5:17 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 01-02-2011 9:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 80 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2011 12:14 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 81 by Nuggin, posted 01-02-2011 12:19 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 135 (598778)
01-02-2011 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by arachnophilia
01-02-2011 1:04 AM


Re: Comparing Similarities And Differences
arach... writes:
i know what you mean. but it's important to note (and i've pointed it out directly to him as well) as he keeps throwing around this "reptile" term, when "reptile" is really just an a completely arbitrary term that excludes birds and possibly dinosaurs by definition, and has no real relationship to any particular clade.
I use the term as I have because that's how I see it used on the websites. Sometimes it doesn't work well for me to designate modern reptiles. I agree with some of the scientists who don't regard birds as reptiles perse. Does that make me stupid and/or stubborn? That's debatable, depending on the mindset of one's making the mean spirited charges and insinuations.
Some very intelligent and educated members on this board are regarded as stupid and stubborn by others, depending on ideology and mindset. Some of us are a little more kindly in our responses to members of different mindsets than our own.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 1:04 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 7:47 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 135 (598805)
01-02-2011 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Nuggin
01-02-2011 12:19 PM


Re: Are Birds Dinosaurs?
Nuggen, notice the message title. In that this thread is not about debating the Exodus or theological matters, don't expect a response from me to your message relating to that. I cited it as an example of scientists seeing what they want to see regarding birds and dinos etc.
We all have somewhat of a tendency to see what we want to see, just as you did here in your response.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Nuggin, posted 01-02-2011 12:19 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 135 (598817)
01-02-2011 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by PaulK
01-02-2011 12:14 PM


Re: Observation Needed To Falsify
PaulK writes:
There's no sense in relying on experts who were unaware of large amounts of relevant evidence, Buz. So you can either use the opinion of modern experts or the evidence itself. Both are firmly against you. Although I must admit that the fact that scientists aren't gullible enough to fall for Wyatt's rubbish is hardly a reason NOT to trust their views.
Scientists were involved with this discovery. IMO, the ones who see what they want to see would go in there to falsify it and put it to rest if they were objective. Imo, they're afraid that if they do it would devastate some of their assumptions.
This may be the case with other research-able data which would support the Biblical record.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2011 12:14 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Nuggin, posted 01-02-2011 11:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 86 by Panda, posted 01-02-2011 11:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 87 by arachnophilia, posted 01-03-2011 1:36 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 88 by PaulK, posted 01-03-2011 5:41 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 89 by jar, posted 01-03-2011 8:52 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 135 (599080)
01-04-2011 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by arachnophilia
01-01-2011 11:34 PM


Re: running, and digits
arach...... writes:
so, this is a science forum, buz. we can't just assume things like the accuracy of the bible, or even that genesis is a record of anything. plus, dinosaurs lived in cold climates, too.
It's also an EvC (evolution vs creation debate board. Don't expect this creationist to buy into your ideological version of science.
arach....... writes:
it's nonsense, from "birds came first" ornithologists and crackpots. they assume that birds would have lost their digits symmetrically, and thus they cannot be homologous to the theropod hand, which is non-symmetric. this is obviously a bad assumption for a number of reasons:
the theropod hand is homologous to the avian carpometacarprus
hoatzin ontogeny recapitulates this particular development, and hoatzin are born with hands that have freely moving digits, claws, and are nearly exactly identical to a maniraptoran hand, except for some extra wrist bone fusing
there is a very strong and convincing history of the evolution of the carpometacarpus, with all kinds of transitional forms, that shows precisely which digit is which, all the way from herrerasaurs (with five digits) to theropods (generally with three) to birds (with essentially one).
there is an excellent rebuttal by greg paul, above, in post #64. it goes back this far because, remember, these "birds came first" crackpots deny that theropod are dinosaurs, not that birds are theropods.
By and large I don't see the problem as nonsensical, given the crackpots are bonafide scientists.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2011 11:34 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Nuggin, posted 01-04-2011 8:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 93 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2011 8:58 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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