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Author Topic:   Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 214 (598342)
12-30-2010 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ICdesign
12-30-2010 12:30 PM


They do exist. We can verify that.
Just like living things and rocks and trees.
We happen to know that radios as one example, were designed, but only because the radio is a creation of human beings.
But the question is, since we know they do exist, does the designer even matter for any reason other than as a historical footnote or in the case of product liability suits?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 12:30 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 12:53 PM jar has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4448 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 107 of 214 (598343)
12-30-2010 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by ICdesign
12-30-2010 11:27 AM


"IF" there is a designer and "IF" he is the Yahweh of the Holy Bible and "IF" what the bible says is true, then it absolutely matters because where you spend all of eternity is at stake.
non sequitur. Where a human spends eternity has no bearing on whether a designer exists or not.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 11:27 AM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 1:03 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 5056 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 108 of 214 (598346)
12-30-2010 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
12-30-2010 12:38 PM


jar writes:
But the question is, since we know they do exist, does the designer even matter for any reason
Yes jar. Yes yes yes. IF nothing can exist without the designer then the designer matters.
You never answered my question. Could the radio or the automobile exist without a designer?
Why is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 12-30-2010 12:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 12-30-2010 1:12 PM ICdesign has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 5056 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 109 of 214 (598349)
12-30-2010 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by bluescat48
12-30-2010 12:44 PM


bc writes:
Where a human spends eternity has no bearing on whether a designer exists or not.
The thread is not about IF the designer exists but IF it matters IF he does exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by bluescat48, posted 12-30-2010 12:44 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 12-30-2010 1:18 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 140 by bluescat48, posted 12-30-2010 5:21 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 214 (598352)
12-30-2010 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by ICdesign
12-30-2010 12:53 PM


does the designer matter?
I did answer the question. We know they exist regardless of whether or not they were designed.
Nor is there any evidence that "IF nothing can exist without the designer then the designer matters."
ICDESIGN writes:
You never answered my question. Could the radio or the automobile exist without a designer?
Why is that?
Well, we certainly know that the radio can exist even if not designed. We know that mobility can exist even if not designed.
The two specific items though we know were designed, but again, I see no reason that even in that case the designer is of any relevance other than as an historical footnote or in the case of product liability suits.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 12:53 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 1:40 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 111 of 214 (598353)
12-30-2010 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ICdesign
12-30-2010 1:03 PM


ICDESIGN writes:
The thread is not about IF the designer exists but IF it matters IF he does exist.
Think of an experiment. What kind of test can you do where you can predict, "If there is a designer, A will happen. If there is no designer, B will happen."

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 1:03 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 1:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 5056 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 112 of 214 (598356)
12-30-2010 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by jar
12-30-2010 1:12 PM


Re: does the designer matter?
Nor is there any evidence that "IF nothing can exist without the designer then the designer matters."
Show me your evidence that it doesn't matter.
Well, we certainly know that the radio can exist even if not designed.
Show me one without the aid of a designed computer.
We know that mobility can exist even if not designed.
We were talking about an automobile not mobility.
jar writes:
I see no reason that even in that case the designer is of any relevance
And this is why I laugh when I hear you spouting off about being a Christian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 12-30-2010 1:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 12-30-2010 1:56 PM ICdesign has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 5056 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 113 of 214 (598357)
12-30-2010 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ringo
12-30-2010 1:18 PM


ringo writes:
Think of an experiment. What kind of test can you do where you can predict, "If there is a designer, A will happen. If there is no designer, B will happen."
You first

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 12-30-2010 1:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 12-30-2010 2:06 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 12-30-2010 4:32 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 114 of 214 (598358)
12-30-2010 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by ICdesign
12-30-2010 1:40 PM


Re: does the designer matter?
ICDESIGN writes:
jar writes:
Nor is there any evidence that "IF nothing can exist without the designer then the designer matters."
Show me your evidence that it doesn't matter.
HUH?
You want evidence that it does not matter? You do know how things work in a debate or discussion don't you?
ICDESIGN writes:
jar writes:
Well, we certainly know that the radio can exist even if not designed.
Show me one without the aid of a designed computer.
HUH?
You do know that we discovered that stars and other objects produce radio before computers didn't you?
ICDESIGN writes:
jar writes:
We know that mobility can exist even if not designed.
We were talking about an automobile not mobility.
And I responded that we know that automobiles are designed. But again, does the designer matter?
ICDESIGN writes:
jar writes:
I see no reason that even in that case the designer is of any relevance
And this is why I laugh when I hear you spouting off about being a Christian
HUH?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 1:40 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 3:02 PM jar has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1513 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 115 of 214 (598359)
12-30-2010 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by ICdesign
12-30-2010 11:27 AM


"IF" there is a designer and "IF" he is the Yahweh of the Holy Bible and "IF" what the bible says is true, then it absolutely matters because where you spend all of eternity is at stake.
I'll write this slowly so you can read it slowly and try to understand the point.
The universe exists. There are certain truths about the universe that we can learn through study. These things will be true whether a designer exists or doesn't.
Our best theory now states that things came about by natural processes. Your belief is that it was designed and created by a deity.
What difference does it make as far as our understanding of the universe is concerned which of the two are more accurate? The thread is not about spiritual or supernatural or mystical differences between the two; any idiot can see what those differences are, as you are showing us. The question is what difference does it make as far as studying the universe and understanding it is concerned.
If you cannot understand and keep in mind this difference, you are intellectually incapable of staying on topic in this thread.
If my understanding of the topic of the thread is inaccurate, I'm sure jar is more than capable of correcting me, and I would welcome further guidance from him if I am in error.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 11:27 AM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 2:33 PM subbie has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 214 (598360)
12-30-2010 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ICdesign
12-30-2010 1:44 PM


a test...
Glad you asked. In Message 8 of the thread "INTELLIGENT DESIGN: An Engineer's Approach" I pointed out some tests.
I can repeat them here for you.
quote:
There is also the fact that the designer is too stupid to adopt good ideas.
Consider cars. There are many species or kinds of cars, Packard, Ford, Chevy, Mercedes, Humber, DKW, AutoUnion, Alfa Romeo, Citroen just as there are many kinds of mammals, lions, tigers, bears, man, orangutan, elephant, horse and of course, ohmys.
The difference between something designed, like cars, and those things that are not designed like mammals though can be seen in the difference in how good ideas do not propagate through out the living species or kinds.
In the early 1920s power windshield wipers appeared on the first car. Within only a few years they were found on every car.
In 1923 the first standard equipment radio appeared. Within only a few years they were found on every car.
In 1939, Buick introduced turn signals. Within only a few years they were found on every car.
The list is almost endless.
* electric wipers instead of vacuum.
* internal combustion engines.
* radial tires.
* heaters.
* air conditioning.
* roll down windows.
* headlights.
* mirrors.
* steering wheels.
* tops.
* spare tires.
* space saver spares.
* starters.
* the change from generator to alternator.
I could go on but that list should give you an idea.
In each instance this was a new feature that first appeared in only one make, sometimes only one model of a car. The designer though took good ideas from one model and applied those same ideas to EVERY model.
We do not see that when we look at examples of living critters. The humans brain is not then repeated in all mammals, the eagles eyes are not then repeated in all animals, good features, advances do not get incorporated across all the makes and models, species or kind, of mammals.
Looking at living critters what we find is NOT Intelligent Design.
In fact, what we do find is not design but rather whatever is just barely good enough to get by.
But even here the issue remains, even where we can see design, other than as an historical footnote or in the case of product liability suits, does the designer matter?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 1:44 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 2:23 PM jar has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 5056 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 117 of 214 (598363)
12-30-2010 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
12-30-2010 2:06 PM


Re: a test...
jar writes:
The difference between something designed, like cars, and those things that are not designed like mammals though can be seen in the difference in how good ideas do not propagate through out the living species or kinds.
What a completely stupid argument. God is a creative genius. The variety of different creatures and various features was intentional. He could have easily made everything the same as a moron such as yourself would have done.
Its the same old argument with you people. You are so arrogant that your argument is "If I were God I would have done it like such and so." You make me want to puke.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 12-30-2010 2:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by DrJones*, posted 12-30-2010 2:28 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 121 by jar, posted 12-30-2010 2:54 PM ICdesign has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2341
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 118 of 214 (598364)
12-30-2010 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by ICdesign
12-30-2010 2:23 PM


Re: a test...
He could have easily made everything the same as a moron such as yourself would have done.
He could have also easily made everything completely unique instead of re-using and modifying parts, that lazy sod.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 2:23 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 5056 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 119 of 214 (598365)
12-30-2010 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by subbie
12-30-2010 1:57 PM


subbie writes:
Our best theory now states that things came about by natural processes.
Key word being "Our".
I"ll tell you what there subbie. When "Your" people show me how to create life from nothing I'll be the first to worship at "your" altar.
Till then I will worship at the altar of the one who CAN create life from nothing.
You guys go ahead and wallow around in your stupidity, I have more important things to tend to...
IC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by subbie, posted 12-30-2010 1:57 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by subbie, posted 12-30-2010 2:34 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1513 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 120 of 214 (598366)
12-30-2010 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICdesign
12-30-2010 2:33 PM


Except that the merits of the different concepts is not the topic of this thread. You do know what a topic is, don't you?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICdesign, posted 12-30-2010 2:33 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
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