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Author Topic:   Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2228
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 76 of 214 (590187)
11-06-2010 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
11-06-2010 4:00 PM


Re: The Chase Cut
jar writes:
If there is some designer then that designer has some method of effecting change. Now determining how change is effected is what Science has shown us time after time. Questions like that are grist for the Scientific method.
Are you suggesting that scientists have found out how the designer effected mutations, and seemingly random mutations at that? Or that they know how the designer effected non-random survival, in such a way that biologists think they are justified in calling it natural selection? I think science has overwhelmingly shown that what you call "method" is in fact a natural process.
If I may paraphrase your conclusion: because the process is known, not the designer an sich, but the very concept of a designer has become irrelevant.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 11-06-2010 4:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 11-06-2010 4:27 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 214 (590188)
11-06-2010 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Parasomnium
11-06-2010 4:25 PM


Re: The Chase Cut
Yes, once the method is known, the very fact that there is a designer is irrelevant except in the areas I mentioned.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Parasomnium, posted 11-06-2010 4:25 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Parasomnium, posted 11-06-2010 5:22 PM jar has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2228
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 78 of 214 (590197)
11-06-2010 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
11-06-2010 4:27 PM


Re: The Chase Cut
Jar, why are you playing at misunderstanding me?

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 11-06-2010 4:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 11-06-2010 5:37 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 79 of 214 (590201)
11-06-2010 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Parasomnium
11-06-2010 5:22 PM


Re: The Chase Cut
There is no play.
If I misunderstand you it is not for lack of trying.
If there is some method that the designer uses, either those we know about or ones we will learn about in the future, then that knowledge is what is important, not the designer.
AbE:
You said:
If I may paraphrase your conclusion: because the process is known, not the designer an sich, but the very concept of a designer has become irrelevant.
Once a process is known then the designer is irrelevant as well as the concept of a designer.
Edited by jar, : add more material

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Parasomnium, posted 11-06-2010 5:22 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 214 (590202)
11-06-2010 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Parasomnium
11-06-2010 3:49 PM


Re: The Chase Cut
Parasomnium writes:
In short, we have great faith in the methods by which science acquires its "opinions". This faith is justified because, generally, scientific explanations work.
Isn't that what the thread is all about? As long as our methods work, what difference does it make if they're "wrong"?

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Parasomnium, posted 11-06-2010 3:49 PM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-06-2010 11:40 PM ringo has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 81 of 214 (590236)
11-06-2010 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
11-06-2010 5:37 PM


Re: Scientific explanations explain what exacally?
P writes
In short, we have great faith in the methods by which science acquires its "opinions". This faith is justified because, generally, scientific explanations work.
Ringo writes
Isn't that what the thread is all about? As long as our methods work, what difference does it make if they're "wrong"?
When F. F, Bruce was writing his book, 'The New Testament Douments, are they reliable', one of his friends, that was used to review his research, asked "reliable as what"?
I would ask, scientific explanations work at demonstrating what? How a tree works? What exacally do they work to do and what questions concening the designer do they solve?
You have faith in the Scientific explanations, to what end?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

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 Message 80 by ringo, posted 11-06-2010 5:37 PM ringo has replied

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 Message 83 by Coyote, posted 11-07-2010 12:32 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 82 of 214 (590239)
11-07-2010 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Dawn Bertot
11-06-2010 11:40 PM


Re: Scientific explanations explain what exacally?
Dawn Bertot writes:
You have faith in the Scientific explanations, to what end?
As I said, to the end that they work. If scientific explanations help us to cure diseases and to put men on the moon, then they're good enough. It's nice to know things just for the sake of knowing but it isn't necessary.
Knowing that a designer existed would add nothing. We'd still know what we've figured out for ourselves and we still wouldn't know what we haven't figured out yet. Knowing that a designer existed wouldn't help us to do anything.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

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 Message 81 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-06-2010 11:40 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2336 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 83 of 214 (590240)
11-07-2010 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Dawn Bertot
11-06-2010 11:40 PM


Re: Scientific explanations explain what exacally?
You have faith in the Scientific explanations, to what end?
Science yields results--it helps us learn.
Creationism does not.
And in fact, creationism is the opposite of science.
--Science helps us figure things out, creationism tells us not to bother, we know everything already.
--Science reflects the real world and what we learn from it, creationism asks us to believe much that is contrary to that real world evidence.
--Science is based on the most up-to-date knowledge, while creationism is a tribal belief invented by shamans thousands of years ago.
--Science seeks to expand our knowledge, while creationism seeks to deny, misrepresent, or ignore much of what we have learned.
And, as Heinlein succinctly stated, "Belief gets in the way of learning."

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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 Message 81 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-06-2010 11:40 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 214 (590347)
11-07-2010 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Parasomnium
11-06-2010 3:49 PM


Re: The Chase Cut
... our current way of doing so tells us that no designer was involved.
This is likely to be a little off-topic, but science tells us no such thing.
And I'm not sure how the rest of your post addresses anything...
Jon
Edited by Jon, : Extending italix

Check out Apollo's Temple!

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 Message 74 by Parasomnium, posted 11-06-2010 3:49 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Philip Johnson
Junior Member (Idle past 5065 days)
Posts: 24
Joined: 12-29-2010


Message 85 of 214 (598211)
12-29-2010 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Larni
11-03-2010 4:59 AM


"Just think how I could improve things if I had his power."
What would you improve? Is there anything other than humans that you would improve?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Larni, posted 11-03-2010 4:59 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 12-29-2010 5:10 PM Philip Johnson has replied
 Message 87 by Larni, posted 12-29-2010 5:42 PM Philip Johnson has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 214 (598218)
12-29-2010 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Philip Johnson
12-29-2010 4:49 PM


Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
What might be changed is irrelevant. The question is "Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Philip Johnson, posted 12-29-2010 4:49 PM Philip Johnson has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Philip Johnson, posted 12-29-2010 5:44 PM jar has replied
 Message 89 by Larni, posted 12-29-2010 6:01 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 87 of 214 (598226)
12-29-2010 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Philip Johnson
12-29-2010 4:49 PM


What would you improve? Is there anything other than humans that you would improve?
I would remove feline leukaemia from the world.
Does that answer your question?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Philip Johnson, posted 12-29-2010 4:49 PM Philip Johnson has not replied

  
Philip Johnson
Junior Member (Idle past 5065 days)
Posts: 24
Joined: 12-29-2010


Message 88 of 214 (598227)
12-29-2010 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
12-29-2010 5:10 PM


Re: Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
"Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?"
We would have to ask the Designer. It has been my experience that most people have a problem believing in a Designer because they have a problem with the design. I am interested to know what you all think... Do you "dislike" any part of the universe other than humans?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 12-29-2010 5:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 12-29-2010 6:15 PM Philip Johnson has not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 89 of 214 (598229)
12-29-2010 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
12-29-2010 5:10 PM


Re: Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
Hi, jar.
Phillip Johnson writes:
Do you "dislike" any part of the universe other than humans?
Can you see where this is going?
Everything is perfect apart from humans and this is sin.
Yada, yada, fall, yada, yada, free will, yada, yada....

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 Message 86 by jar, posted 12-29-2010 5:10 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Philip Johnson, posted 12-29-2010 6:08 PM Larni has replied

  
Philip Johnson
Junior Member (Idle past 5065 days)
Posts: 24
Joined: 12-29-2010


Message 90 of 214 (598232)
12-29-2010 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Larni
12-29-2010 6:01 PM


Re: Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
Larni, you are the one who said you could improve on the universe. That is why I ask... Do you "dislike" any part of the universe other than humans? I would truly like to know your answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Larni, posted 12-29-2010 6:01 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Larni, posted 12-29-2010 6:14 PM Philip Johnson has replied

  
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