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Author Topic:   The Flood = many coincidences
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 445 (597484)
12-21-2010 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Percy
12-17-2010 8:41 AM


Re: Plate Tectonics is a joke - "movement" measured in minimeters...
Percy,
Not that I don't appreciate your research/looking up GPS things in this area, but you could always search "seismic lines across plate boundaries"
There are actual raw data seismic lines across the Jaun De Fuca plate, some very good 3D seismic looking at the Pacific plate going under Japan, and some across the mid-Altantic Ridge.
The internet is not the best place to get geologic data unless you belong to one of the professional organizations.
I'll bet Architect-426 has never looked at this or even knows about it.
Hell, from what I can tell reading this thread, he doesn't even basically understand ASTM soil descritpions.
Not the first person I'd chose to build something for me.
No problem if you want to know what color to paint your kitchen, but if you actually want to build something I'd call a Civil Engineer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Percy, posted 12-17-2010 8:41 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Danielcp
Junior Member (Idle past 4841 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 12-25-2010


Message 272 of 445 (597945)
12-25-2010 9:42 PM


Flood Geography
I am brand new to this sight and as such may post something that has been discussed already, but I have something that amazes me about the flood.
I have traveled into the western U.S. on several occasions. When I was at the Grand Canyon (AZ, national park), I took note of the very clear explanations of its watery past, as presented in the visitor center. Also, when I was once driving through the desert of western TX, I stopped at a national park, and they also mentioned that particular parks watery past (Guadalupe park). Now these are only two of many places like this, places that had watery pasts, with a fossil record proving it.
After those visits, a thought came to mind. "If I took a world map, and put a simple pin in every place that has a fossil record denoting a watery past, would I be able to cover the earth with pins on my map?" ...need to put that on the "to do" list.
Anyway, we debate the validity of a biblical flood. We, or you, or somebody, argues that it didn't happen. But, there is so much evidence that clearly shows that the world was flooded...how can one argue that there was not a world wide flood? Clearly sea life fossils in desert places around the world point to a flood. Those fossils certainly didn't visit the desert in a car at some point in the past.

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by jar, posted 12-25-2010 9:51 PM Danielcp has not replied
 Message 274 by bluescat48, posted 12-25-2010 10:08 PM Danielcp has not replied
 Message 275 by lyx2no, posted 12-25-2010 11:40 PM Danielcp has not replied
 Message 276 by Panda, posted 12-26-2010 3:16 AM Danielcp has not replied
 Message 277 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-26-2010 3:19 AM Danielcp has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 273 of 445 (597947)
12-25-2010 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Danielcp
12-25-2010 9:42 PM


Re: Flood Geography
Welcome home. But the Biblical flood simply never happened.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Danielcp, posted 12-25-2010 9:42 PM Danielcp has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 274 of 445 (597950)
12-25-2010 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Danielcp
12-25-2010 9:42 PM


Re: Flood Geography
There are at least 2 reasons for the fossils found in deserts & on mountains, climate change & plate tectonics.
At several times in the ancient past, the world climate was much warmer, with no ice cap. The sea level was several hundred meters higher than it is now, Much of the eastern & central North American was under water. When the climate cooled forming the ice caps the water receded leaving the bottom silt, containing dead organisms, in place. Plate tectonics, the plates colliding built up mountains carrying the remains of life with it. The point is this occurred millions of years ago and not all at once.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Danielcp, posted 12-25-2010 9:42 PM Danielcp has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 275 of 445 (597953)
12-25-2010 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Danielcp
12-25-2010 9:42 PM


Flood Geography
You're ignoring time. If you put a pin in a plan of my garden on every spot where I've stood would you feel free to believe that my alyssum and coreopsis languish in perpetual shadow?

When cometh the day
We lowly ones
Through quiet reflection
And great dedication
Master the art of karate
Lo, we shall rise up
And then we'll make
The bugger's eyes water
Roger Waters

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Danielcp, posted 12-25-2010 9:42 PM Danielcp has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 276 of 445 (597958)
12-26-2010 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Danielcp
12-25-2010 9:42 PM


Re: Flood Geography
As lyx2no pointed out, you have forgotten to include 'time' in your conclusions.
Although you may be correct that every place has been underwater - you have not applied a time-scale.
Every place has been probably been underwater at some point in time.
The continents of the earth have not always been the same size, shape or position.
Over millions of years the earth's surface changed - some land was slowly raised and some land was slowly lowered.
If land is raised above 'sea level' it becomes dry land and the reverse is true: if land is lowered below 'sea level' it fills with water.
But if land is raised above 'sea level' then it also raises up all the stuff that was underwater (e.g. fossils, rocks, etc.).
(This is a simplistic explanation - but it will do for now.)
I hope this helps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Danielcp, posted 12-25-2010 9:42 PM Danielcp has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 277 of 445 (597959)
12-26-2010 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Danielcp
12-25-2010 9:42 PM


Re: Flood Geography
When I was at the Grand Canyon (AZ, national park), I took note of the very clear explanations of its watery past, as presented in the visitor center.
Did you nod off when they told you about the Coconino Sandstone and the Hermit Shale?
After those visits, a thought came to mind. "If I took a world map, and put a simple pin in every place that has a fossil record denoting a watery past, would I be able to cover the earth with pins on my map?" ...need to put that on the "to do" list.
Now do it again with deposits that are terrestrial. Heck, do it with deposits that are glacial.
Anyway, we debate the validity of a biblical flood. We, or you, or somebody, argues that it didn't happen. But, there is so much evidence that clearly shows that the world was flooded...
Uh, no. There's evidence showing that at various times bits of the world were wet, something that no-one disputes.
If there was evidence showing that "the world was flooded", geologists would have noticed, especially as that's what they started off looking for.
Clearly sea life fossils in desert places around the world point to a flood. Those fossils certainly didn't visit the desert in a car at some point in the past.
No, and the desert fossils found in temperate places around the world didn't take the train.
Environments change.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by b.r. bloomberg, posted 03-15-2011 12:45 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 278 of 445 (598003)
12-26-2010 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Architect-426
12-14-2010 6:48 PM


Re: Sea-Floor "spreading" is false - Plate Tectonics is finished
quote:
The vid of the Icelandic volcano of course is a fissure-type eruption in which magma is simply being ballistically ejected onto the surface and will dry wherever it lands.
Not sure where you are getting your information, but a fissure eruption does not refer necessarily to style of eruption, but the morphology and structural control of the vent(s).
quote:
It is not, however, spreading the crust in any manner of the concept.
Why not?
Here is a presentation showing how a fissure eruption occurs at a divergent plate boundary.
Just a moment...
quote:
Obviously the fracture opened first providing a linear conduit for the magma to rise vertically,...
Yes and that conduit has some relationship to the regional stress field which is concordant with the known tectonic environment.
quote:
... not horizontally as per the irrational plate tectonic spreading idea.
Not sure what you mean here. Sounds like a strawman. Are you sure you understand regional crustal rock mechanics?
quote:
Iceland itself is indeed a plate tectonic anomaly as when one studies the bathymetry of the MOR formation, you can clearly see how Iceland formed due to a massive outpouring of basaltic lava OVER the MOR formation.
True. But what is really important is what happens as that carapace is stretched across the expanding crust. See the link above to see what happens as that supracrustal basalt is stretched in an approxiamate E-W direction. It is exactly what we would expect in an extenstional PT environment.
quote:
Again, this copious eruption of magma did not spread apart the MOR, but spread out laterally on top of the MOR most likely due to massive crustal concussions that occurred during the Flood.
The first part of this statement actually makes sense. Yes, the actual extension is in the emplacement of basaltic dikes in the oceanic crust, of which the surface carapace of volcanism is a manifestation.
The flood business is pure fantasy.
quote:
I don’t negate the rifting occurring at the MOR’s, however dubbing the MOR’s as spreading centers when to this day I still have not seen a physical test to support such a concept...
Incredibly wrong. There is abundant evidence of spreading at the known divergent boundaries.
quote:
... (yet the compression scenario can be/has been tested),...
My, that's generous of you! So, how do you have compression in some areas with out extension in others?
quote:
... is simply an effort to support the childish idea of Pangea breakup all because scientists think that all of the continents used to be bunched up like a giant meatball.
Ummm, no. First of all, why is the idea 'childish'?
In fact, if you look up Large Igneous Provinces, you will find tha the Icelandic province, with which you seem to be familiar, is spread all across the North Atlantic from Scotland to Greenland. This is due to spreading which you seem to reject based on a cursory understanding.
quote:
By all means, ignore all of the massive volcanism on all continents because sure enough when you have to address those, then poor ‘ol Pangea becomes nothing but a cartoon diagram and thus is only true in one’s imagination.
Well, that continental volcanism includes your Icelandic Province. If you have a better explanation, this would be a fine time to apprise us all.
quote:
Spherical mechanics are out the window as well. Heck, any kind of true mechanics is out the window with the foolish play tectonic theory.
And you have some alternative?
You are simply making unsupported assertions here.
There is abundant evidence against what you write here. From actual measurements of divergence, to radiometric ages, to structural analysis and correlation of rock types, you are shown to be embarrassingly wrong.
quote:
One, since science is hell-bent on old-earth evolution,...
Wonderful. Another non-scientist telling us the motivation for doing science. Basically, an unsupported and wishful assertion.
quote:
... then Pangea had to exist in order for evolution to be true and thus support an ever-so-slow continental drift mythology.
Again, no support. Just assertions. For instance Pangea was only one of such ancient 'supercontinents'. So are you telling me that we really need TWO supercontinents for evolution to be valid?
This is silly. Why couldn't we just make up a story where the continents just bounced off each other but never coalescing? Could it be that this is where the evidence leads us?
Or are you saying that we make up stories because that is what you do?
quote:
Thus plate tectonics has become the adopted bastard theory of geology and is referred to in every geological publication because the Earth is old due to the asinine sea-floor spreading idea.
Nonsense. If that's all the reason for PT, then we could just as easily make up some kind of 'steady state' non-tectonic theory.
quote:
Dammit all to hell if anyone comes along to contradict the pet play toy plate tectonic theory with real scientific observations....
Hey, if you've got some evidence, I'm ready to look at it.
But you don't, do you?
quote:
... forever sending the theory into the throws of pseudo-science making just about the entire scientific community look pretty sheepish. Therefore no one in earth science speaks out against it (yet this is why we have groups like New Concepts in Global Tectonics).
It seems you have an axe to grind. Why not provide us with some evidence?
I'm going to snip the rest of your post. Partly because it seems mostly like a rant with some personal anecdotes; but also because I doubt you will even read this post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Architect-426, posted 12-14-2010 6:48 PM Architect-426 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Architect-426, posted 12-29-2010 10:10 PM edge has replied
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Architect-426
Member (Idle past 4622 days)
Posts: 76
From: NC, USA
Joined: 07-16-2008


Message 279 of 445 (598269)
12-29-2010 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Percy
12-17-2010 8:41 AM


Re: Plate Tectonics is a joke - NO VELOCITY to "build"
Hi Percy,
Key word from your post - velocity. Since the (nil) velocity of "plates" truly cannot even be defined as velocity per se, much less translated into energy to "build" anything, then indeed plate tectonics is false in terms of creating geological features.
Thus my entire argument regarding vertical tectonics and volcanism vs. "plate" tectonics, or the idea that land masses move with enough horizontal speed and "crash" into another landmass. This alleged plate tectonic notion is sheer nonsense as shperical mechanics and displacement completely negate this "lateral" type of motion, and is only supported by colorful diagrams to "explain" how this supposedly happens.
Yet the fact remains; no velocity = no energy = no "plate" tectonic construction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Percy, posted 12-17-2010 8:41 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Coyote, posted 12-29-2010 9:45 PM Architect-426 has not replied
 Message 284 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-30-2010 1:58 AM Architect-426 has not replied
 Message 288 by Percy, posted 12-30-2010 8:54 AM Architect-426 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 280 of 445 (598273)
12-29-2010 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Architect-426
12-29-2010 9:33 PM


Re: Plate Tectonics is a joke - NO VELOCITY to "build"
You seem to be trying to force reality to fit within your religious beliefs. Problem is, it doesn't fit. Your religious beliefs are flatly contradicted by reality.
The earth is old, giving the small annual movement of the plates plenty of time to do all sorts of things. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Architect-426, posted 12-29-2010 9:33 PM Architect-426 has not replied

  
Architect-426
Member (Idle past 4622 days)
Posts: 76
From: NC, USA
Joined: 07-16-2008


Message 281 of 445 (598276)
12-29-2010 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by edge
12-26-2010 3:29 PM


Re: Sea-Floor "spreading" is false - Plate Tectonics is finished
Edge,
As I have already explained to Dr. A, the hands down deal-killer of the PT idea of alleged sea-floor "spreading" lies in the formation of the MOR's. In other words, these massive features in no manner were created by a mm/yr "sprading" of the ocean crust, especially in a "slow" manner (In fact, major geological features could never have been formed in a slow PT manner due to lack of energy).
However, if the MOR formation can be better explained via the compression scenario due to axial loading, and can be modeled as such, then sea-floor "spreading" is indeed false. Do I have proof of this? Yes, and it can be demonstrated.
For example, in construction we design expansion joints in slabs, walls etc. because we know that under certain conditions the concrete (or brick, cmu, etc) will expand. When this expansion occurs, the slab will buckle while also forming cracks (fissures) perpendicular to the load (a result from axial loading).
This true observation can be applied to the MOR formation resulting from massive global movements literally compressing the ocean lithosphere into those impressive formations. Therefore, yes indeed I have a plausible alternative to the PT "spreading" concept. And one that is observed, can be tested and repeated and it makes sense.
(In your post you asserted that I'm a "non-scientist", yet architecture embraces all of the sciences. Not to mention that God is The Architect of everything which is confirmed in the Scriptures. He asks Job a rhetorical question; "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare if thou hast understanding". )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by edge, posted 12-26-2010 3:29 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-30-2010 2:06 AM Architect-426 has not replied
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 Message 289 by edge, posted 12-30-2010 7:48 PM Architect-426 has not replied

  
Architect-426
Member (Idle past 4622 days)
Posts: 76
From: NC, USA
Joined: 07-16-2008


Message 282 of 445 (598277)
12-29-2010 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by edge
12-26-2010 3:29 PM


Re: Sea-Floor "spreading" is false - Plate Tectonics is finished
See above post. Administer pls delete this post. Thanks
Edited by Architect-426, : post submitted twice, thus deleted

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by edge, posted 12-26-2010 3:29 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 283 of 445 (598289)
12-30-2010 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by Architect-426
12-29-2010 10:10 PM


Re: Sea-Floor "spreading" is false - Plate Tectonics is finished
{Content hidden. Message should never have been posted - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Content hidden, add message.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Architect-426, posted 12-29-2010 10:10 PM Architect-426 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 284 of 445 (598291)
12-30-2010 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Architect-426
12-29-2010 9:33 PM


Re: Plate Tectonics is a joke - NO VELOCITY to "build"
Key word from your post - velocity. Since the (nil) velocity of "plates" truly cannot even be defined as velocity per se, much less translated into energy to "build" anything, then indeed plate tectonics is false in terms of creating geological features.
Thus my entire argument regarding vertical tectonics and volcanism vs. "plate" tectonics, or the idea that land masses move with enough horizontal speed and "crash" into another landmass. This alleged plate tectonic notion is sheer nonsense as shperical mechanics and displacement completely negate this "lateral" type of motion, and is only supported by colorful diagrams to "explain" how this supposedly happens.
Yet the fact remains; no velocity = no energy = no "plate" tectonic construction.
As pointed out to you (for example in post #267) the velocity is not "nil". We know this because the displacement is not nil.
Displacement over time can indeed be "defined as velocity per se".
And mass in motion possesses kinetic energy.
You fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Architect-426, posted 12-29-2010 9:33 PM Architect-426 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 285 of 445 (598292)
12-30-2010 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Architect-426
12-29-2010 10:10 PM


Re: Sea-Floor "spreading" is false - Plate Tectonics is finished
As I have already explained to Dr. A, the hands down deal-killer of the PT idea of alleged sea-floor "spreading" lies in the formation of the MOR's. In other words, these massive features in no manner were created by a mm/yr "sprading" of the ocean crust, especially in a "slow" manner (In fact, major geological features could never have been formed in a slow PT manner due to lack of energy).
You know how I explained to you that assertion is not argument?
Let's try a little logic here. The energy sufficient to move plates by 2 cm per year is sufficient energy to move plates by 2 cm per year. Do you deny this?
However, if the MOR formation can be better explained via the compression scenario due to axial loading, and can be modeled as such, then sea-floor "spreading" is indeed false. Do I have proof of this? Yes, and it can be demonstrated.
And yet when I asked you for a demonstration, you stopped posting for three months. Did you hope we'd forgotten?
Let's ask again. Can you show me any instance where the results of compression mimic the structure and behavior of a mid-ocean rift and ridge?
In your post you asserted that I'm a "non-scientist", yet architecture embraces all of the sciences.
And yet it's always (for example) people who have studied medicine who walk away with the Nobel Prizes in medicine, and never those know-it-all architects. I wonder why that is?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Architect-426, posted 12-29-2010 10:10 PM Architect-426 has not replied

  
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