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Author Topic:   On the evolution of English as a written or spoken language.
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 31 of 88 (596353)
12-14-2010 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
12-14-2010 12:54 PM


Re: "Ghoti"
jar writes:
many words and terms simply disappear, do not survive, or get new uses.
Natural selection is a process.
"simply disappear, do not survive, or get new uses" are not processes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 12-14-2010 12:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-14-2010 1:57 PM Panda has replied
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 12-14-2010 2:00 PM Panda has not replied
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 12-14-2010 2:20 PM Panda has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 88 (596354)
12-14-2010 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Panda
12-14-2010 1:52 PM


On Natural Selection of the English Language
Natural selection is why they disappear, get new uses.
The Natural Selection in language is the population that uses the language, that selects what survives and does not survive.
Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Panda, posted 12-14-2010 1:52 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Panda, posted 12-14-2010 2:54 PM jar has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 88 (596355)
12-14-2010 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Panda
12-14-2010 1:52 PM


Re: "Ghoti"
Natural selection is a process.
"simply disappear, do not survive, or get new uses" are not processes.
See my post on language academies. Also, words disappearing or getting new uses is a linguistic process; one of the many processes through which language vocabularies change.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 34 of 88 (596356)
12-14-2010 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Parasomnium
12-14-2010 9:05 AM


Re: "Ghoti"
Does anyone know how to pronounce "ghoti" in English?
It is not an English word. According to No webpage found at provided URL: Wikipedia's Klingon Language article, it is the tlhIngan word for "fish":
quote:
There are also many in-jokes built into the language. For example, the word for "pair" is chang'eng, a reference to the twins Chang and Eng, and the word for "fish" is ghotI'.
And following the ghoti link there, we also find the word "Ghoughpteighbteau", pronounced "potato".

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 88 (596357)
12-14-2010 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by dwise1
12-14-2010 1:58 AM


long long ago
Long long ago in a land far far away, I worked as a computer programmer for some marine biologists. In talking to one about his programs database and reporting needs, he mentioned that one thing that was very important was to track the mode.
"Oh.", said I, "easily done and I will provide the mean and average as well as mode."
"No!", said he, "I want the mode used, for example, from the dock, in a boat, in the surf, with net, with rod and reel..."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 88 (596358)
12-14-2010 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Panda
12-14-2010 1:52 PM


Panda writes:
Natural selection is a process.
"simply disappear, do not survive, or get new uses" are not processes.
In biological evolution, the least fit individuals are selected out by usage. The fittest words survive because they are selected in by usage.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Panda, posted 12-14-2010 1:52 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Panda, posted 12-14-2010 2:56 PM ringo has replied
 Message 48 by dwise1, posted 12-15-2010 3:29 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 37 of 88 (596361)
12-14-2010 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
12-14-2010 1:57 PM


Re: On Natural Selection of the English Language
jar writes:
Natural selection is why they disappear, get new uses.
Which is not what you originally said:
quote:
Natural Selection is pretty obvious, many words and terms simply disappear, do not survive, or get new uses.
jar writes:
The Natural Selection in language is the population that uses the language, that selects what survives and does not survive.
Surely the population (as a whole) is the environment.
Individual attitudes would be like natural selection?
Or would that be more like artificial selection?
And you have still not described what natural selection would be in your analogy.
I suggested one example earlier - surely there are more.
If your original comment was just an asside, then just acknowledge this reply and I'll leave it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-14-2010 1:57 PM jar has replied

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 Message 43 by jar, posted 12-14-2010 4:53 PM Panda has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 38 of 88 (596364)
12-14-2010 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
12-14-2010 2:20 PM


ringo writes:
In biological evolution, the least fit individuals are selected out by usage. The fittest words survive because they are selected in by usage.
Yes, but what causes words to be selected in?
(And I did give an example of words being selected out too.)
But I think this might have been just an asside by Jar and not something he wanted to discuss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 12-14-2010 2:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 12-14-2010 3:37 PM Panda has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 39 of 88 (596367)
12-14-2010 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Panda
12-14-2010 10:50 AM


Re: "Ghoti"
Panda writes:
Northern English 'dance' or southern English 'dance'?
(I think it is northern style.)
Take the shortness of the north, combine it with the a-sound of the south, and by Jove, you've got it.

This message is a reply to:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 40 of 88 (596371)
12-14-2010 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
12-14-2010 11:47 AM


Re: "Ghoti"
"Crashfroh" writes:
I'm not going to say it like I'm Dutch, so I'm just gonna stick with "Van Goh."
That's fine by me.

This message is a reply to:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 41 of 88 (596372)
12-14-2010 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by dwise1
12-14-2010 11:45 AM


Re: "Ghoti"
dwise1 writes:
The professor was covering a few of the theories of the origin of human language and mentioned the idea that it came from animal sounds.
What an odd suggestion. Next they'll be telling us we evolved from animals. Tsk!
Edited by Parasomnium, : setting quote attribution right

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 42 of 88 (596373)
12-14-2010 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Panda
12-14-2010 2:56 PM


Panda writes:
Yes, but what causes words to be selected in?
As I said, usage. People use the words that get their message across with minimum confusion, the words that are easiest to pronounce, the words that they like the sound of, etc. just as predators eat the animals that are easy to catch, that taste good, etc. The only difference is that one is positive selection and the other is negative selection.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Panda, posted 12-14-2010 2:56 PM Panda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-15-2010 1:21 AM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 88 (596382)
12-14-2010 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Panda
12-14-2010 2:54 PM


Re: On Natural Selection of the English Language
Surely the population (as a whole) is the environment.
Surely?
It is the filter, what does the selecting of what is in and out. And what is Natural Selection biologically other than the environment as a whole?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Panda, posted 12-14-2010 2:54 PM Panda has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 44 of 88 (596469)
12-15-2010 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Parasomnium
12-14-2010 3:33 PM


Where did he Gogh?
Vincent Van Gogh [New Orleans - 3 May 1976]
/ Robert Friemark
[The Warehouse, New Orleans - 3 May 1976]
[Note: Olof's 1976 summary shows this date as 2 May 1976...and has nothing
for 3 May 1976]
[Note: this song only makes sense when the American mispronunciation of
van Gogh is used (= van Go)]
Dylan: Where are ya? It's hard to see ya...oh, there ya are.
I'd like to tell you a story
Of a man that you might know
His parents all called him Vincent
His last name was Van Gogh
And he started into drinking and painting
And leading a life of sin
He fell in with evil companions
A man named Paul Gaugin
Well, [he/they?] came to the city of Auvers
Persuing their carnal delights
They painted all during the afternoon
And they made music all night
The people of that small city
Thought he was a little bit queer
So to prove his love for mankind
He chopped off his [outside] ear.
They put him in an institution
But they could not keep him there
He picked up his paints and his easels
And he went out to take some air
Then he picked up his paints and his easel
And he went out to paint some crows
They found him face down in a corn field
Shot right between two rows
Now, where did Vincent Van Gogh...?

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 45 of 88 (596473)
12-15-2010 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
12-14-2010 3:37 PM


People use the words that get their message across with minimum confusion ...
How long have you been posting on these forums?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 12-14-2010 3:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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