|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 45 (9208 total) |
| |
anil dahar | |
Total: 919,510 Year: 6,767/9,624 Month: 107/238 Week: 24/83 Day: 0/3 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
Author | Topic: Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
hERICtic Member (Idle past 4776 days) Posts: 371 Joined: |
Jar writes: None of the prophecies are even in the New Testament.All that you say may well be obvious to you and if so, then why not start a thread on it and see if you can support your position, but none of it is relevant to this thread or topic. The Gospels of course will have exactly the same substance as they do now. I guess I should have said "fulfilled prophecies". But why start a thread, you're doing all the great work! Very well stated your breakdowns. Not sure how its not relevant to the topic though. Its been stated there are over 300 prophecies in the OT, which Jesus fufilled. Your taking one at a time, showing how they're not prophecies. Are you then suggesting the events described in the NT actually occured and they're just coincidence, that they match up with verses in the OT? My position is that they're not prophecies, but midrash. Verses taken out of context and stories woven around them. Im not even sure how you can state that the gospels will have the same substance regardless if they're fulfilled prophecies or midrash. An apologist will state the events occured. I say the events were make believe stories. Huge difference. But anyway, I'll step aside. I was serious though. Great thread on your part.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Good questions and maybe worth another thread but just not relevant to this topic.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
The next so called Prophecy fulfilled by Jesus claimed was Genesis 49:10.
quote: But is this a reference to Jesus? Let's look at Genesis 49:10 in context.
quote: Wow, it seems it is about the Twelve Tribes, where they will be located and what their characteristics will be. And the support that this is a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus is? A contrived genealogy. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
Now we come to the last example that ICDESIGN presented, Zechariah 9:9.
Zechariah (it is likely that the Book of Zachariah is actually written by two or three different writers over a period of as much as 100 years) like Daniel is a product of the Persian enlightenment. This was a time when the exile was ended, the Hebrews were returning home, the Temple being rebuilt and the area a semi-autonomous vassal state. When we get to Zachariah 9 we are most likely reading the work of the Second Zacharia. Chapters 9-11 deal with the period leading up to a Messiah, but not one like Jesus. It is a vision of a return to independence though and the establishment of a Hebrew Great power, through a war lord and conquest. Now lets look at the cite.
quote: And as usual, the quote mined section in context. First just that section ...
quote: And what comes before Zacharia 9:9
quote: Hardly the Prince of Peace. and after ...
quote: This oracle (one of two found in Zacharia) is about the Jewish Messiah, a warlord and prince that establishes a new Jewish super power in the region. And now let's turn to the alleged support.
quote: Note where the support ends and the last sentence ICDESIGN used. Here is what comes after that colon at the end.
quote: IF, and I say if, this actually happened it is just as it says in verses 4&5, a contrived fulfillment, an example of myth building where someone aware of some earlier oracle, intentionally does a minor act to garner legitimacy. More likely, it is simply quote mining by the writer of Matthew, an editorial insertion. Even if the story was true though, you can see that what was actually said by the prophet does NOT come true. So now for a final tally. ICDESIGN presented six examples claimed to be prophecy fulfilled by Jesus. Not one of them stands up to examination. Edited by jar, : fix word order mess in next to last sentence Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICdesign Member (Idle past 5057 days) Posts: 360 From: Phoenix Arizona USA Joined:
|
2 Peter 2:1 ....there will be false teachers among you,
who will secretly bring in destructive heresies.... and bring upon themselves swift destruction. Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to thetradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with variousand strange doctrines. Ephesians 4:14 ...we are no longer to be children,tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of of doctrine, by the trickery of men by craftiness in deceitful scheming... 2Timothy 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BYGOD and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness... Matthew 24:35 Jesus said: Heaven and earth willpass away, but my words will not pass away. So guess what jar? Long after you are dead andgone and your big mouth has been silenced, the Word of God will still be marching on as it has from day one and will continue to do till the final day. The bible is by far the number one selling book in all of history and by far the most loved and the most read of any book ever written. Nothing you will ever say or do will put even theslightest dent in the unchangeable truth of THE WORD OF GOD
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
Since you do not present any support for your position is it reasonable to assume that what I have presented is accurate?
Would you like for us to step through each of your new quote mined verses and look at them in context? Do you understand that the audience, the readers, are capable of examining what I present and you present to see exactly who is the False Teacher? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
I see you make no attempt to defend your assertions about prophecy. You and christians like you are why people are turned off from christianity. You make these wild promises and claims, but once anyone questions them you not only cannot defend them, but you then claim that your wild ass claims and promises cannot even be questioned.
You made a claim of 300 prophecies that Jesus met and yet you can not even defend one. You cannot even make a feeble defense. You may have noticed this is in the science forums where evidence is required to support arguments. I guess you cannot put up so I guess you had better shut up. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
Would you like for us to step through each of your new quote mined verses and look at them in context? I think this would be a very helpful exercise for a lot of us here. If you have the time and/or inclination it would be greatly appreciated. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
frako Member Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
Yea not a bad seller 3.9 billion copies in 2000 years
The litle red book on the ideology of the chinese communist party sold a quorter of that number or 820 million copies in much less time. Harry potter sold 400 million a tenth of the bible in what a 1% of the time the bible is on the makret. And im guessing the nr 2 and nr 3 would sell loads of more copies if they where put in every hotel drawer Still the number of harry potter books sold does not make the story true.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
I can try.
Let's start with 2 Timmy.
quote: The first thing to point out is that the author of 2 Timothy is really unknown. First, the letter (that is all that Epistle means) is traditionally attributed to Paul, but was more likely written long after Paul's death by one of his followers. Writing things in the style of a well known author and attributing it to that author was a well accepted practice at the time (an even continues, for example one of the best known and often referenced Sherlock Holmes stories is "The Seven Percent Solution" yet was not written by Sir Arthur). Second, the term Scripture does NOT refer to the Bible or the actual contents of any give Canon, but just to writings that are thought to be inspired by God and that can teach us lessons about morality, ethics, social behavior or conduct. The author of 2 Timmy understood this well, for example, the Epistles were at the time just correspondence, letters. The only Canonized books at the time, if there were any, might have been the first five books of the Old Testament. The passage quote mined comes from the end of what is now Chapter 3.
quote: Note in particular that the author returns again to the subject that what really counts is actually doing good work. 2 Timothy is a really interesting read because the common theme throughout it is honesty in belief. It warns against just the things I have tried to point out in this thread, taking things out of context and creating myths. In fact the very next Chapter begins:
quote: It tells us to " correct, rebuke and encouragewith great patience and careful instruction."; and the reason we should do that is "3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." ICDESIGN and others do not what to hear what I say. 2 Timothy is relatively short, only four chapters and well worth reading in full. It can be found beginning here. I really hope others will take the time to read it in full and in context. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin Edited by jar, : finish first sentence Edited by jar, : can't even spal "and" rite Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18652 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
interesting....
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
Next look at 2 Peter.
As in several others we have looked at, the actual author and even the approximate period when it was written is unknown. The subject matter though is was very serious at the time and involved yet another unfulfilled prophecy, the imminent end of the world and return of Jesus. It is one of the first examples of Apologetics found in the Bible. If we look at the early Pastoral letters from Paul and Peter we see a general belief that the end really is near. For example, Paul's position on marriage in his early letters seems to be based around there just not being enough time to raise kids before the end so just don't bother getting married. But time passed, the end did not come and so there was a growing movement promoting Jesus as just another failed Messiah. 2 Peter is an attempt to change the perception from an imminent return to some indefinite future event. Like 2 Timmy, 2 Peter is short, only three chapters and can be found here. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped! |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
The next quote mine from ICDESIGN is Colossians 2:8.
Here is that quote mine:
quote: Before we get to actually looking at Colossians, I suggest the audience stop and consider who exactly is depending on deception, human tradition and elemental spiritual forces of this world (an interesting subject that gets expanded on in Colossians) so far in this thread? Like several of the Pastoral Epistles we've discussed, the actual authorship of Colossians has been disputed. It's likely though that it was written by Paul or one of his followers around the time of Paul's first imprisonment. The letter is addressed to the church at Colossae and was meant to address some of the pagan customs and beliefs that some in the church had adopted. Here is the quote mined section in context.
quote: But wait, there is more ... in the next section the author gets to the meat of the subject.
quote: The author here seems to be saying that the show, the carnival that is so typical of the Christianity being marketed today is but a farce, a sham; entertaining perhaps but unrelated to Jesus' real message. Colossians is another very short letter, only four short pages, and can be found here. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped! |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
This one is particularly fun and as with the others, you have to wonder if those using it as support have a real reading problem or if they simply DON'T read the Bible, rather only take other folks word about what it says.
Here is the quote mined section ICDESIGN uses.
quote: In this case he does not even bother quoting the whole verse, much less place it in context. Here is all of Hebrews 13:9.
quote: Now I realize that Hebrews is one of the longer letters, all of about thirteen pages long, but come on, if you are gonna take stuff outta context, at least take the whole verse. You can read all of Hebrews here. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped! |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kapyong Member (Idle past 3702 days) Posts: 344 Joined: |
Gday,
ICDESIGN writes: 2Timothy 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BYGOD and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness... Christians love to quote this passage as if it proves the Bible is inpired, but there are several serious problems with this passage :
2 Tim 3:16 is ambiguous The meaning of 2 Tim 3:16 is ambiguous in the Greek because the "is" is not found in Greek. Here is Young's literal translation, which hedges it's bets by including "is" not found in the original :
16 every Writing ('is') God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that ('is') in righteousness, Here is the literal translation without the fudged "is" :
16 every Writing God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that in righteousness, Here is what essay on bible.org says about the variant translation :"Such a translation is possible, but not required. Actually either translation can claim to be accurate. Both translations have to supply the word is since it does not appear in the original." 5. The Bible: The Inspired Revelation of God | Bible.org Some Bible versions do have the variant : (2 Tim 3:16 REB) All inspired scripture has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, or for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, (2 Tim 3:16 Lamsa) All scripture written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness; (2 Tim 3:16 NEB) Every inspired scripture has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, or for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, (2 Tim 3:16 ASV) Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. (2 Tim 3:16 YLT) every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness, (2 Tim 3:16 Darby) Every scripture [is] divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; (2 Tim 3:16 WYC) For all scripture inspired of God is profitable to teach, to reprove, to chastise, [for] to learn in rightwiseness, (2 Tim 3:16 Douay-Rheims) All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice: (2 Tim 3:16 Webster's) All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Tim 3:16 Inspired Version) And all scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; (2 Tim 3:16 Brown and Comfort Interlinear) ALL SCRIPTURE [IS] GOD-BREATHED AND USEFUL FOR TEACHING, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION FOR TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, GNT's note at 2 Timothy 3:16 that gives "Every scripture inspired by God is also useful" as a valid translation (and one that implies that not all scripture is inspired).
Note that apologists never quote this version of the translation, because it doesn't say what they want it to. New Testament didn't exist when Timothy was written It is basic Christian history that the NT did not exist when Timothy was written. Timothy was written in early-mid 2nd century (mid 1st according to Christian stories though) But the NT did not exist as a collection until 4th century.
Timothy could not possibly have been cailling ITSELF "scripture" as it was being written, could it ? Timothy is a forged letter It is a well known consensus of NT scholars that the Pastorals were forged letters, not by Paul. You can read some details here as to why :2 Timothy An excerpt follows : 2 Timothy is one of the three epistles known collectively as the pastorals (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus). They were not included in Marcion's canon of ten epistles assembled c. 140 CE. Against Wallace, there is no certain quotation of these epistles before Irenaeus c. 170 CE. Norman Perrin summarises four reasons that have lead critical scholarship to regard the pastorals as inauthentic (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 264-5): Vocabulary. While statistics are not always as meaningful as they may seem, of 848 words (excluding proper names) found in the Pastorals, 306 are not in the remainder of the Pauline corpus, even including the deutero-Pauline 2 Thessalonians, Colossians, and Ephesians. Of these 306 words, 175 do not occur elsewhere in the New Testament, while 211 are part of the general vocabulary of Christian writers of the second century. Indeed, the vocabulary of the Pastorals is closer to that of popular Hellenistic philosophy than it is to the vocabulary of Paul or the deutero-Pauline letters. Furthermore, the Pastorals use Pauline words ina non-Pauline sense: dikaios in Paul means "righteous" and here means "upright"; pistis, "faith, " has become "the body of Christian faith"; and so on. Literary [myspace]style[/myspace]. Paul writes a characteristically dynamic Greek, with dramatic arguments, emotional outbursts, and the introduction of real or imaginary opponents and partners in dialogue. The Pastorals are in a quiet meditative [myspace]style[/myspace], far more characteristic of Hebrews or 1 Peter, or even of literary Hellenistic Greek in general, than of the Corinthian correspondence or of Romans, to say nothing of Galatians. The situation of the apostle implied in the letters. Paul's situation as envisaged in the Pastorals can in no way be fitted into any reconstruction of Paul's life and work as we know it from the other letters or can deduce it from the Acts of the Apostles. If Paul wrote these letters, then he must have been released from his first Roman imprisonment and have traveled in the West. But such meager tradition as we have seems to be more a deduction of what must have happened from his plans as detailed in Romans than a reflection of known historical reality. The letters as reflecting the characteristics of emergent Catholocism. The arguments presented above are forceful, but a last consideration is overwhelming, namely that, together with 2 Peter, the Pastorals are of all the texts in the New Testament the most distinctive representatives of the emphases of emergent Catholocism. The apostle Paul could no more have written the Pastorals than the apostle Peter could have written 2 Peter. K.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024