Deconversion experiences

Thank you Buz, I didn't expect you to agree with me on this. Perhaps you do have some good reasons to believe as you do.-Meldinoor

Hi ICDESIGN, Agreed. But isn't this a Catch 22? Before I can trust God, I have to have at least a fairly high level of confidence that He exists. But, according to you, in order to have that confidence I must already trust Him.Which comes first? The chicken or the egg? The belief in God's existence, or trust in Him? And if either one must be gained before the other, how does one go about gaining either of them?Respectfully,-MeldinoorEdited by Meldinoor, : Added a more relevant subtitle

Actually, I'm standing here, looking at the world and claiming that it does not even appear to be designed. If I thought it appeared to be designed, then I wouldn't have a problem with it being designed. Unfortunately, for a whole boatload of reasons (that belong in a different thread), it doesn't really appear to be designed at all. See above. The only apparent thing about answers to prayer, is that I prayed for something, and it happened. Supernatural forces have never been particularly apparent as causes of these answers to prayer.Respectfully,-Meldinoor

Hi Buz, It's your call, Buz, although I do have a few problems with that OP as it stands.
The first problem is the fact that most of the prophecies that you reference in it have yet to be fulfilled. Now, you might make the case that the current situation in the Middle East could easily lead to the fulfillment of prophecy, but it seems to me that prophecy that has already been fulfilled would be a bit less speculative, and make a stronger case for the divine inspiration of the prophets.
Secondly, I'd prefer if you cited the relevant bible verses whenever you present an interpretation of scripture. The OP contains a lot of summaries and explanations of entire chapters, but very few actual bible citations to back up your interpretation of the scriptures. I'm not saying that your interpretations are necessarily flawed or unsupported by the text, but citing specific passages eliminates the very probable waste of time that is sifting through a chapter to figure out just which verses support our arguments.I think I'd prefer a new OP, all things considered. But you're the one presenting the case for God's existence, so I will let you choose how to do so.Respectfully,-Meldinoor

Hello ICDESIGN,I realize that the design of nature is very apparent to you. It's not simply that you have faith that nature is designed, everything you see reinforces that belief. The beauty of the stars on a moonless night, the shrill voices of baby birds in a nest, and the colors of a summer meadow all speak to you of an intelligent designer. Oh, and there's your favorite topic of discussion as well, the inner workings of the human body.I'm not denying that nature can appear designed on a very superficial level, and when viewed selectively. However, when viewed from a fuller perspective the appearance of design falls away.
First of all, if one believes life on earth to be the end goal of creation, one might ask oneself why it was placed in such an inconsequential part of an absurdly large universe. Next, one might notice the chaos out there: galaxies colliding and ripping each other apart, supernovas, gamma rays, black holes, and life-threatening collisions between planets and other bodies. All these factors pose a serious threat to our existence as a species, although "fortunately" our lives are so short that the probability of these rare devastating events occurring in any given generation is vanishingly small.
But then there are natural disasters that occur on a much more frequent scale. The earth's climate is not stable, sometimes leading to periods of severe weather like ice ages, or widespread drought. Earthquakes have killed millions of people throughout history. Volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, and tsunamis are all examples of completely natural disasters that have killed countless people and other creatures. It is no wonder that at least 98% (not an exaggeration!) of all species on this planet have gone extinct. Which, by the way, makes you wonder how cramped the planet would be if they had all shared this earth at the same time. And I'm not even going to get started on epidemics, parasites, and predation.
Most creationists I've talked to try to justify the chaos and destruction evident in nature by automatically bringing up the Fall whenever they don't like something about the world. However, even if the Bible did describe a complete remodeling of the entire universe (it doesn't) after the fall, biblical justification doesn't enter into the argument. They're claiming that the world looks designed for human life, and I point out why it doesn't. No matter how you cut it, the fact remains that in the present day it is a chaotic mess without the appearance of a benevolent designer.Then there's the rather silly and ineffectual "design" of certain organisms and functions and hierarchical nesting of all life, but I realize that this is getting very off topic, so I will digress no further. A design is something created by an intelligent being, for an intelligent purpose. My post is an example of something that was designed, though I sometimes wonder about the intelligence of the designer I hope that clears up why I don't think the universe is designed. This really isn't the place to begin a lengthy discussion about design, and I'd be happy to discuss any of the things that I have brought up in a separate thread.Respectfully,-Meldinoor

Hi Dawn,To be fair, some posters here are prone to foul-mouthing and ridiculing their opponents. A few will do so at the tip of a hat, others only after they become sufficiently frustrated or annoyed by their opponent's arguments/behavior/whatever. Most people who participate here realize that this is a public internet forum, and participate here with the expectation that their views will be scrutinized, picked apart, and yes, even ridiculed.Curiously, the only people I ever see complaining about abuse are creationists. A very small minority of them, mind you. Other creationists, like slevesque (who is a moderator by the way), Buzsaw, ICANT, ICDESIGN, just to name a few off the top of my head, are generally very respectful, and do seem to be prepared to have their beliefs challenged by both the more civil, and the more acerbic, members without whining about it. But a few make it their MO to whine about unfair treatment in just about every post they write.One example that comes to mind is a user who is no longer very active here. In one discussion I spent a couple of hours writing up a lengthy post responding to a number of arguments he had presented. His reply did not even touch on what I wrote. Instead he responded with ridicule and indignation, and then, ironically, went on to complain about us "evolutionists" and how unfair we are. This was a pattern that applied to essentially all of his "contributions" to this forum, and he's probably the only participant here that I've been happy to see leave.So please, stop whining about belittlement and ridicule, and grow some backbone. Evolutionists do not have a monopoly on meanness and ridicule, and it makes me angry whenever a creationist on this forum makes blanket statements to that effect. What does it accomplish?Alright, now I've got that off my chest. Back on topic: And why's that do you think? Because the worlds most brilliant scientists (even Christian ones) accept the theory of evolution on a basis that's inherently unconvincing? If so, why are so many smart and well-educated people, including Christians, utterly convinced by the arguments for it?Or is it because you possess knowledge that these people do not? If so, you should share it with the world, starting right here with this forum.Perhaps the reason why you find evolutionist arguments completely unconvincing is that you've already made up your mind what it is you believe, and any further argument is ultimately not going to change that. It could be, for example, that you have faith in a Divine Designer, accompanied by a faith in evil forces intent upon clouding the minds of men and making them rebel against said Designer by embracing falsehoods about the universe.Or it may be none of the above. I'm sure you'll elaborate if that's the case. Yes indeed, by all means, ask away. It'd be downright boring if you guys didn't take me to task on defending my beliefs. It wouldn't be much of a debate then, would it? Really?-MeldinoorEdited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.Edited by Meldinoor, : Removed some sarcastic stuff

Thanks for sharing your experience, Apothecus. I remember when you joined EvC you came across as a skeptical person who wasn't afraid to question your faith, and I wasn't entirely sure where to place you on the theist-agnostic-atheist scale. I saw things a little more black-and-white back then, since I hadn't yet come to appreciate the gray-scale that lies between faith and non-faith.I also appreciate the solidarity that comes of others having similar experiences. When I started this topic I was unsure how my deconversion would compare to those of other ex-Christians. Now I am, well, kind of relieved that my experience was by no means unique, and I recognize elements from your experience, as well as cavediver and others who have responded.As far as admitting my departure from the faith to loved ones, I do feel cowardly for not having done so. OTOH, it's only been a couple weeks, and during that time the topic has never come up. I see no reason to make a public announcement just for the sake of announcing it, as long as I don't have to live a lie. If I'm asked outright, I'll probably just tell the truth, as tactfully as I can manage.
But I agree with you completely, it's important to consider the impact it will have on family. I'm not married, so I that makes it a lot easier for me to come out. I'm actually reminded of Darwin, who was so sensitive to his wife's beliefs that he put off publishing his theory for many years. At least that was part of the reason he waited with it.Anyways, I do wish you all the best in overcoming whatever difficulties your ongoing experience is causing you, and I hope you'll be able to steer clear of any resulting fallout with friends and family. Haha, I almost felt tempted to write "I'll pray for you"... Damn! Now I've gotta find something else meaningless to tell people I'll do for them, when really I'm powerless to offer anything but encouragement.-Meldinoor

That's an unusual statement coming from a Christian. If you don't mind me asking, what do you believe, jar? If I'm not mistaken, you profess to being a Christian, but I rarely see you taking the side of other theists in the debates. You discount biblical prophecy, and now you say that the Christian god was invented by man. I'm not being critical by any means, I'm just confused by the mixed signals. What exactly does being a Christian mean to you?Respectfully,-Meldinoor

I think so. But a good map must have some connection to the reality it attempts to portray. The Christian faith seems so ridden with errors and inaccuracies that it's hard to see how one could consider it a good map. Admittedly it does contain a bit of historical information, and some excellent teachings, but then it's got a lot of evil in it as well. Hell, the slaughter of innocents (condoned by God), etc.How does a faulty map serve you as any kind of guide to live by?Respectfully,-Meldinoor

That makes sense. Thanks for explaining your position. I've often wanted to ask, but never before found a good opportunity to do so.Respectfully,-Meldinoor

Hi Dawn, Good for you. Can't wait to hear your convincing arguments. What else? You haven't even presented any arguments yet. (Either do so in another thread or direct me to another thread where you have done so) I have read the Bible cover to cover on more than one occasion. I am well acquainted with its contents. Alright! I can't wait to be convinced! By foundation I assume He means the empty space Earth hurtles through on its orbit around the sun? Cornerstone? Footings? I'm not sure if we're on the same page here. He is talking about planet Earth, yes? That round, rotating thing that orbits the sun? Those big, gassy, hot, glowy things can sing? Um, no one? Surely He's referring to rivers and rainfall? Oh dear, He's still talking about that flat earth. Maybe Job was so delirious from all the unjust torments God visited on him that he miswrote what he heard. Surely God isn't suggesting that one can give orders to a time of day, or that the Earth is a giant carpet? No God, I'm afraid you've got it wrong again. The earth I live on takes shape through tectonic forces, volcanic activity, and erosion by wind and water. It's not much at all like clay under a seal, when you think about it. Oh good. That explains why some escaped Nazi war criminals were struck down mercilessly by God in their 90's, after having lived comfortable, long lives in Argentina. Yes. We call them "river deltas". Not personally, but I have seen them on TV. I've seen some pretty dark gates, but I haven't seen the gates of death. My dear cat, Felix, has though. At least he's dead. Whether he saw gates, or a light at the end of a tunnel, or pie in the sky I don't know. Yes. In fact, I've traveled across quite large portions of it. How can darkness reside anywhere? Darkness is merely a qualia of the human mind that represents the absence of photo-stimulation of the retinal cells of the eye. Light is an electromagnetic wave that can hardly "abide" anywhere, seeing as how it propagates at 300,000 m/s. Seeing as how you created the water cycle, you of all people should know that snow and hail are formed in clouds. Storehouses aren't involved anywhere in the process. I'd like to try whatever you've been smoking! Does the rain have a father? From whose womb comes the ice? I think you may be confusing sex with meteorology.

---

So... what do a bunch of bronze age misconceptions of how the world works have to do with Intelligent Design?-MeldinoorEdited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

Did I miss something?Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

No, I got the point. Nope, and neither was He. As is apparent by his complete lack of understanding for how the world works and how it formed.-Meldinoor

ABE: Sorry. I didn't see admin Moose's post until after I posted this. Nope. While not being as knowledgeable as, say, a scientist who has actually studied the relevant areas of knowledge, I'm pretty sure my words convey more scientific knowledge than the entire book of Job. Everyone has a right to question, no matter how stupid or ignorant they are. That's funny, because it seems to me that creationists and IDists seem to prefer the simple and incorrect explanations for creation given in the Bible. Are you saying that you don't know how and when God created the world? No, but you could lie about it. Is God also right about the shape of the Earth? About where snow and hail come from? It's kind of funny that you're suggesting God to be an authority on creation, when he can't even get some basic astronomy and meteorology right. Oh? How do you know? You don't know who I am, or what I understand. For all you know I could be God, cleverly disguised as a skeptical college student. If that's the case then I AM the undisputed authority on creation, and I think you're bonkers.With divine disdain for your blasphemy,-MeldinoorEdited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

If moving this topic to a different subforum will reduce off-topic blather and make it easier for WSW24 and others to share their stories, then I would like to have this topic moved. Perhaps to Faith and Belief.Thanks,-Meldinoor