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Author | Topic: Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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In Message 83 of the thread Deconversion experiences ICDESIGN makes the claim that this is a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus.
quote: I'd like for us to step through the examples in order to see if any actually can be supported. Here is the first example given.
quote: The first question must be how those two lines relate to the context. So here is Isaiah 52 in full.
quote: As you can see, What Isaiah is talking about is Jerusalem, and his audience is Judah, and it is the subject of Judah's future that is the big question. The period was when Judah sided with Assyria and Syria in their conquest of Israel and Samaria and acted as an ally and almost vassal state. Isaiah was speaking encouraging Judah to change allegiance and oppose Assyria by an alliance with Egypt. So that is the setting. Next, look to see if there is anything in the two verses that is really unique and so would be supported by Jesus or imply that Isaiah was even thinking of Jesus? Well, not that I can see. Let's look at ICDESIGN's claimed support of fulfillment?
quote: I certainly don't see support there for a suffering servant acting wisely, or being lifted up, or exalted, or being so disfigured that he was not recognizable as human. So, unless someone can provide better support than ICDESIGN did I would have to say that this prophecy is not even about Jesus and if it was, it was not fulfilled. Bible A&E please Edited by jar, : fix subtitle Edited by jar, : change title Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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AdminPD Inactive Administrator |
If you want to "step through" all his examples, I think you need a more all encompassing title. Other than that, I have no problem promoting this topic.
ThanksAdminPD
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jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
How bout that?
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AdminPD Inactive Administrator |
Thread copied here from the Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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The next claimed prophecy is Micah 5:2.
quote: Again, if we look at the quote mined part in context, we can see that Micah is writing to an audience, the same audience as in the first example, the people of Judah during the time of Assyrian expansion.
quote: If you look at Micah 5 (likely not even written by Micah) it is absolutely dealing with contemporary issues, looking for the Nation of Judah to stand up in support of the Nation of Israel against a specific threat at a specific time in history. So now let's look at the alleged fulfillment.
quote: Nothing in that about a ruler and certainly nothing about the issue that Micah was addressing. Once again, all that this prophecy seems to entail is taking stuff out of context and trying to shoehorn it into the Jesus mythos. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Zubbbra25 Junior Member (Idle past 4364 days) Posts: 22 Joined: |
This seems like an interesting topic. I received an e-mail from a local creo as he kept saying that there are roughly 60 prophecies fulfilled in the bible. So seeing you disect them in such a way is very interesting.
I will post but one or two that he sent to me (more if you would like) and we could see if those are fulfilled or not Old Testament
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. New Testament
Matthew 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. And the next one: Old Testament
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. New Testament
Matthew 21:4-5 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. John 12:14-15 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
Now I am not a biblical scholar at all, I don't even have a bible on my bookshelf so I'm unsure as to what context these passages have been taken under.
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jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Well, since Isaiah 7:14 is the next one on the list, we can go ahead and deal with it.
Like all the others, it is NOT a Prophecy fulfilled by Jesus or even a reference to Jesus but it is another comment on the same topics as in the previous two examples. We need to remember that Isaiah like Micah lived in turbulent times when the big powers were changing, Egypt waning and Syria and Assyria on the ascendancy. Israel and Samara had fallen and were vassal states of Syria and Assyria, the Tribe of Ephraim had some time before allied itself with Israel and opposed to Judah. So first, here is the passage used as a prophecy.
quote: So is that a reference to Jesus? Let's look at the quote mine in context. First the short version ...
quote: Note the part in bold and underlined that they always leave out. It is clear that the child is to be born then and there and that before the child is old enough to know right from wrong, the predictions will be fulfilled, the two nations feared will be in ruin and the Assyrians will be attacking Judah. But what are the two nations to be feared? They are covered at the beginning of Isaiah 7 ...
quote: So we have the time, the fact that Israel was allied with Aram (Damascus) and threatening Judah. So there does not seem to be anything in Isaiah 7 that is related to Jesus in anyway. Next let's look at the supposed fulfillment.
quote: Not a single bit that actually seems related to Isaiah 7:14, just more quote mining. verbal gymnastics and tap dancing. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Zubbbra25 Junior Member (Idle past 4364 days) Posts: 22 Joined: |
Hmmm... I would love to know how many of the predicitions my creo friend sent me are just out-of-context quotes.
Keep it up jar, this is really interesting! I've never taken the time to do any biblical reading nor biblical history at that, so I'm loving this My thanks!
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jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Without even knowing what quotes he used I can say with a VERY, VERY high degree of confidence, 100%.
What I find most sad is that folk such as your friend lose so much of the value of the stories. This was a really momentous time for the people involved and the folk like Isaiah and Micah were much like many today; like the people saying "If we keep on screwing up the environment all hell will result." When they take the position that the Bible is simply some prelude to Jesus they miss out on so very much, and when they take stuff out of context to support their position, they are simply creating fantasy. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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hERICtic Member (Idle past 4775 days) Posts: 371 Joined: |
The initial claim was that there was over 300 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. The problem though, is that the apologist would first have to show the events in the gospels occured in the first place!
Without the evidence of these happenings, one cannot claim they came to pass. The mere fact though, once you break down the so called prophecies and show them in their context, its obvious that the stories found in the gospels never happened. Its midrash. The authors fell back upon the OT and built stories around the earlier ones. There are prophecies, events and quotes mirrored from the OT to the NT, which became the stories found in the gospels.
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jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The mere fact though, once you break down the so called prophecies and show them in their context, its obvious that the stories found in the gospels never happened. I would certainly not go that far at all. Edited by jar, : fix quotebox Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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frako Member Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
I wonder why icdesighn is not joining in to defend his claim. Could it be that he knew he was taking the prophecies out of context?
Genesis 49:10: The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his. This one does not even need the whole context. Rome ruled over the Jews so the -"staff" was takenThe nation of jews mostly believes that jesus was not the mesias- So the obidiance of the nation is not his even worse the bible said the jews killed him so this prophecy is a clear no on fulfillement And still some cite it. Jeremiah 23:5: "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. Well tough luck he never reigned, wisely or unwisely, he was never a king, and not much justice and right came out of his life or death. and still it is being cited
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jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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For Daniel, we jump forward about 150 years and several regime changes. The Syrians and the Assyrians have conquered Judah, the Hebrews (many) have been carried off into exile and now the Syrians and Assyrians in turn have been conquered by the Persians. Daniel had been carried off as a child but under the Persians, life for the Hebrews has been quite different than under the hand of Damascus or Babylon. Beginning with Darius and right on through Cyrus the policy was one of allowing freedom of religion and even promoting the return of the Hebrews (many didn't want to go back) and the rebuilding of the Temple.
The actual story of Daniel covers (with lots of redaction and editorial inserts) the period between the end of Babylonian rule and the early Persian Empire. So once again, let's examine what is claimed to be prophecy of Jesus.
quote: But what about the context? Here is the passage in full:
quote: Note the parts they always leave out. The Anointed One does get put to death, but has nothing. The City gets destroyed and there will be War until the end and best of all he gets to set up an "abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. Doesn't sound much like Jesus. And what of the supposed fulfillment?
quote: And what is the context of Galatians?
quote: Nothing at all like what is described in Daniel. Edited by jar, : fix parentheses Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped! |
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hERICtic Member (Idle past 4775 days) Posts: 371 Joined: |
Jar writes: I would certainly not go that far at all. I certainly would. If you take away the so called 350+ prophecies (and phrases), there really isnt much substance left in the gospels. In other words, the story in Matthew of the virgin birth. Lifted from Isa 7:14. If you take that occurence away, no virgin birth.Micah...no Bethlehem. Pierced hands and feet, crucifixion. Taking his garments, friends deserting him, no bones broken, Passover sacrifice, riding the colt, flight to Egypt, etc. Those are just at the top of my head. How about the actual quotes lifted from the OT which were put in the mouth of Jesus? Its obvious they were lifted from the OT, taken out of context and stories were built around them. Seriously, if you go "prophecy by prophecy"(many which arent even prophecies to begin with, but "actual" past events retold differently-multiplying the loaves, killing of infants) and then focus on their context, then remove them from the NT, what exactly is left? Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 97 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
None of the prophecies are even in the New Testament.
All that you say may well be obvious to you and if so, then why not start a thread on it and see if you can support your position, but none of it is relevant to this thread or topic. The Gospels of course will have exactly the same substance as they do now. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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