Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,912 Year: 4,169/9,624 Month: 1,040/974 Week: 367/286 Day: 10/13 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Mysterious Questions, Mysterious Answers and Supernaturalism
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 32 (590531)
11-08-2010 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
11-05-2010 2:08 PM


A Cause is a Cause Beacuse
... the actual cause remains an unknown.
False. The cause has become known. Just because it wasn't the currently accepted scientific cause does not mean it wasn't a cause. Their cause may have been wrong, so may ours be wrong. A cause is a cause; it's known if it's known.
The real difference (and the difference between the above "supernatural" explanations and dark matter) is that some of these answers are real answers with explanatory and predictive power...
Who says a 'real' answer must have these features?
others are just mysterious answers to mysterious questions and stop curiosity in the intellectually lazy without actually increasing understanding.
Everything stops curiosity in the intellectual lazyas would the 'real' answers you discuss. Fortunately, though, not everyone is intellectually lazy, and the 'mysterious answers to mysterious questions' often implant great degrees of curiosity in such folk. In fact, answers that more thoroughly answer the question stop more curiosity than the less thorough answers which are inevitable prompts for additional 'whys'.
A mysterious answer is one that does not increase our understanding of the question it attempts to answer, and instead often utilizes vague, poorly defined (if defined at all) terms as a sort of password to stop further investigation and shut down curiosity.
Well, since you've chosen to define a 'mysterious answer' as one that is meant 'to stop further investigation and shut down curiosity', then I guess it would be true that, given this definition, all 'mysterious answers' will stop curiosity. But now, can you provide some examples of answers that would fit this definition of 'mysterious'?
Our greatest weakness with regard to rational thought is not that we posses the capacity (and willingness) to make up stories to fill in those unknowns, but rather in our ability to feel satisfied with those stories to the point that we stop investigating mysterious phenomenon even when we still don't have a real explanation.
I think you'll find this false. Ever heard of a kid who was satisfied with an answer? It is human nature to continue questioning; it takes a life of brainwashing to beat that out of folk.
But the answer was mysterious. What is phlogiston, other than "that which burns?" What makes it burn? Why does phlogiston not always burn, even without a match or spark or friction to start the fire? What is combustion? Phlogiston theory was nothing more than a password for "the stuff that burns" that emotionally satisfied curiosity.
Of course, as you point out, there is no satisfying of curiosity with this hypothesis; you yourself have listed a load of questions that can be asked even if we accept the phlogiston argument.
Predictive power is the key to any real answer.
Why? What kinds of predictions? Lots of good answers offer nothing in the way of 'predictive power'.
"Where's the Lasagna?"
"Aisle ten, ma'am."
"Well shit, you dope-faced little punk; that ain't no real answer... I can't predict nothing outa that!"
Seriously, though, why should an answer have to allow one to make predictions to be regarded as real?
If your explanation of a mysterious phenomenon does not allow you to, in advance, make a prediction about the outcome of an experiment regarding that phenomenon that then proves to be accurate, then you don't really have an explanation at all - you have a mysterious answer.
Again, why?
In everyday life, mysterious answers are relatively harmless. Most people don't really know how a computer works - and if they ask, a simple answer like "there's a processor inside that uses programs to turn all the ones and zeroes into something you and I can understand and use"
That's a perfectly fine answer, providing the inquirer with more information than they had before, and certainly provides ample material for a curios mind to explore further. There's absolutely nothing 'mysterious' about it.
But we need to recognize when our answers are mysterious, because confusing a mysterious answer for an actual explanation is dangerous. Mysterious answers are much more likely to be flat-out wrong (rather than just inaccurate and vague)
But the answer in your computer example was just that: slightly inaccurate and vague. Far from 'mysterious' and far from being a curiosity stopper.
If your answer for a mysterious phenomenon relies exclusively on "evidence" that is not entangled with the real world ("feelings," for example), your answer is mysterious, and is no better than a random guess.
Your computer example, of course, does not meet any of these criteria; I'm still not seeing why it is 'mysterious'.
Only by including the mechanism by which the proposed deity provides guidance to the well-known evolutionary process would the answer cease to be mysterious and be sufficient to satisfy curiosity. Claiming that the Flood caused the Grand Canyon does not in any way show how a Flood would ever cause any such formation, much like saying that flammable objects burn because they have phlogiston doesn't actually show why phlogiston is a reasonable answer.
I cannot figure out how this ties in with anything else you've said.
an artificial satisfaction of curiosity
What does this mean?
Are all of these beliefs held because of an emotional preference, an artificial satisfaction of curiosity because a useless but preferred answer tends to be believed over a useful but less preferred one? It's the best answer I can come up with...but what about everyone else?
Beliefs are held for a lot of reasons; but nothing in this question has anything to do with the rest of your post.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rahvin, posted 11-05-2010 2:08 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Rahvin, posted 11-08-2010 5:51 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 32 (590534)
11-08-2010 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Rahvin
11-08-2010 12:14 PM


Re: He either Is or He ain't
The question for this thread is why people will accept mysterious answers and stop their curiosity
There are a lot of reasons: they may not care, they may be stupid, they may be tired, they may be hungry, they might have to go take a shit before they can ask more questions. A good way to answer your question, then, is not with a list of possible reasons people may not inquire further, but with a question back at you: What makes you accept 'non-mysterious' answers?
the answer did not actually increase understanding.
Of course, none of the examples you've given so far fit with what you are claiming.
"Where does lightning come from?"
"Thor's hammer."
"Ooo... I know more than I did before..."
Where is there a failure to create knowledge, understanding, promote further curiosity, or anything of the sort? I realize you do not like these answers; that's fine. I realize these answers are not in accordance with modern scientifically-accepted explanations; that's fine. I realize these answers aren't the best and perhaps somewhat silly; that's fine. I fail, however, to realize how these answers are guilty of the things of which you claim them guilty.
I also fail to see how the purpose of this thread (as you claim it) in anyway has warranted the nonsense claims you made in that mile-long, thousand-topic OP. Perhaps, though, it has something to do with this:
The question is not whether we know if Thor exists or not, or whether it is possible to know. We have threads for that, and frankly I'm not interested in another go-around with RAZD on the subject.
But, of course, what the hell else could you have been expecting starting a thread like this? The question that you claim this thread to be about is just silly and clearly too open to make for a good discussion topic. There is certainly no other reason to have started this thread other than to have made a bunch of ridiculous claims about the nature of answers, curiosity, etc. that you knew would rile up those with whom you disagree only to charge anyone of those opponents who attempted to reply to those claims with being off-topic, thus being able to infuriate those folk.
So, what is the 'real' topic here?
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Rahvin, posted 11-08-2010 12:14 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 32 (590537)
11-08-2010 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taq
11-08-2010 4:44 PM


Re: He either Is or He ain't
Not only does it stop you from being curious
Of course, it does no such thing.
it also has the side effect of making you wrong when there is the discovery of a verifiable cause for an observed phenomenon.
Who cares about being wrong? Being wrong is how we learn; being right is boring.
You shouldn't stand in the middle of an open field holding a 10 foot metal antenna while standing in a pool of salt water whether or not Thor makes lightning.
You should definitely sacrifice a bull, though.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Taq, posted 11-08-2010 4:44 PM Taq has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 32 (590549)
11-08-2010 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Rahvin
11-08-2010 5:51 PM


Re: A Cause is a Cause Beacuse
Jon writes:
Well, since you've chosen to define a 'mysterious answer' as one that is meant 'to stop further investigation and shut down curiosity', then I guess it would be true that, given this definition, all 'mysterious answers' will stop curiosity. But now, can you provide some examples of answers that would fit this definition of 'mysterious'?
I gave several. Perhaps you didn't read?
Of course you didn't. None of the examples you gave were instances where an answer stopped curiositywhatever the hell that even means. I even pointed this out with each example and gave further examples of curiosity sparked by the answers.
In my OP, I even gave an example of a mysterious answer that was held as the then-currently accepted scientific answer for the cause of fire.
Yup; you sure did. Never showed how in any way 'phlogiston did it' was a curiosity-stopper, though. In fact, you noted many things about which to be further curious given the answer 'phlogiston'.
Imagine my car was broken yesterday, and today it's been repaired.
I know that the sequence of events was:
1) car broken
2) something happened
3) car working
I ask what happened to restore my car to working order. The response I get is "Fred fixed it."
What do I know now?
1) car broken
2) something happened involving Fred
3) car fixed
You know Fred grabbed some wrenches and dug around under the hood of the car, as opposed to chanting spells on it, praying for it, pissing on it while drunkenly singing along to bad country music, etc. So, I would say the answer 'Fred fixed it' provides a lot of information, and as you yourself point out, does in no way stop curiosity on the matter of exactly what Fred did.
This is a problem if I think this means I somehow understand how to fix cars when they are broken.
Then how is this a problem with the answer? Sounds more indicative of personal intellectual laziness than anything.
Of course I can predict something with that answer. I can predict that, if I look up and down aisle 10, I will find lasagna.
You can predict the answer just given to the question? That's a low criterion of usefulness in terms of a prediction, but I'll run with it:
"Thor's hammer causes thunder."
I can predict that if I find Thor's hammer, I will be able to make some thunder with it. Yup, seems good to me. Let's go find it.
Perhaps you're surprised to see me writing it, but scientists can fall for the same intellectual traps that non-scientists can.
Indeed. All scientists are likely wrong.
If you ask me what makes a computer work, and I answe "magic," do you have any idea how a computer works?
A vague idea, yes, which prompts for a lot of curiosity.
If you asked me what makes cars go, and I answered "phlogiston," would you be able to make a car?
No, but you cannot expect any answer that can be given between the time one wakes up and the time one goes to bed to convey all the information required to build a car. That an answer must instill in the recipient all the knowledge needed to replicate the event to be a 'real' answer is just a nonsense criterion that makes it pretty much impossible for anything other than cooking recipes to qualify as 'real' answers. Your expectations for what counts as an answer are ridiculous and unrealistic.
Do you think about things before you post them?
Sure do. You've still lots of points to address, though, Rahvin:
Because obviously, Jon, answers that do not have those features do not actually answer questions.
What does it mean to actually answer a question?
What is required of an answer for it to actually answer a question, and why are these things required?
Jon writes:
But now, can you provide some examples of answers that would fit this definition of 'mysterious'?
I gave several.
How are the examples you gave curiosity-stoppers?
How are the instances you gave of stopped curiosity in anyway a fault of the answer and not merely an indication of the intellectual laziness of the recipient?
Of course real answers stop curiosity. The problem of mysterious answers is that they stop curiosity when they should not, because the question has not been answered.
How does any answer in and of itself stop curiosity?
Why is stopping curiosity a good thing?
Look forward to seeing these things addressed.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Rahvin, posted 11-08-2010 5:51 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 32 (590550)
11-08-2010 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
11-08-2010 6:28 PM


Re: Refining the Topic
I can choose either a rational answer or a mysterious answer.
How would you tell the difference between the two?
Others would say that "God knows everything.." (Mysterious Answer) which stops all further investigation.
Of course, that in no way stops all further investigation. I am not even sure I see how any answer whatsoever could so stop further investigation.
Now lets allow the man to further refine his topic, shall we?
Well of course we shall! There are, in fact, several polite requests for clarification currently waiting to be addressed.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 11-08-2010 6:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 32 (596919)
12-18-2010 12:57 AM


"Mysterious Answers" of Today
I thought this was a good thread; I'd like to continue with it. I think one of the areas of confusion was in trying to determine what Rahvin considered to be a 'real answer'. It was discussed a few times the possibility that there may have been a conflation between 'real answer' and 'modern science-conforming answer'. Rahvin denied this, of course, but the confusion has not been laid to rest, in my mind.
What I think would help, if Rahvin is still interested in this thread, is an example of a modern scientific theory/conclusion which might be suspect as a 'mysterious answer', and an explanation of why it might be 'mysterious'. Pointing to modern scientific theories/conclusions that fail the test of 'real answer', I think, would go a long way toward clearing up whether 'real answer' has been used synonymously with 'modern science-conforming answer'.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Panda, posted 12-18-2010 6:27 AM Jon has replied
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 12-11-2014 7:00 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 32 (596938)
12-18-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Panda
12-18-2010 6:27 AM


Re: "Mysterious Answers" of Today
Jon writes:
I thought this was a good thread; I'd like to continue with it.
Really?
Yes.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Panda, posted 12-18-2010 6:27 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Panda, posted 12-18-2010 12:17 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 32 (596951)
12-18-2010 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Panda
12-18-2010 12:17 PM


Re: "Mysterious Answers" of Today
What you quoted me saying had nothing to do with my opinion on the thread. It simply wasn't worthy of response.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Panda, posted 12-18-2010 12:17 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Panda, posted 12-18-2010 1:12 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 32 (596959)
12-18-2010 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Panda
12-18-2010 1:12 PM


Re: "Mysterious Answers" of Today
Whatever.
Have anything worth contributing to the thread?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Panda, posted 12-18-2010 1:12 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Panda, posted 12-18-2010 3:51 PM Jon has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024