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Author
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Topic: Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Re: It IS important
Yes, it matters very much whether there is a designer or not. Good answer; but now you must explain why.
The question of the designer's identity may be perceived as a parochial one, but if ID is true it means that just about everything we think we know about the world around us is bunk Why? Does the Earth not go around the Sun now simply because we found out some intelligent being made it that way? Did the Big Bang not occur now that we know it was meant to happen like that? Are the processes that brought the Earth into existence no longer real having discovered they were instigated by an intelligent force? Does the moving particle no longer move only because we figured out who was ultimately pushing it?
that our methods of gaining knowledge are seriously flawed. Why does it mean this? All else constant, does figuring out that your sports car was designed and built by an intelligent being as opposed to merely falling into existence really affect how it currently operates? Does suddenly knowing this now tempt you to fill the fuel tank with jello instead of gas? If there was a designer, there was always a designer. How does discovering this designer change the reality of the Universe? How does our knowledge of a designer in any way alter objective Reality? Jon Edited by Jon, : word order
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Parasomnium, posted 11-03-2010 4:19 AM | | Parasomnium has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 16 by Phat, posted 11-03-2010 11:59 AM | | Jon has replied | | | Message 134 by Phat, posted 12-30-2010 4:06 PM | | Jon has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 13 of 214 (589549)
11-03-2010 10:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-01-2010 8:14 PM
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Nope... Don't Matter a Bit
"Even if ID was true, is there any value to the concept of a Designer beyond a historical footnote or in the case of Product Liability suits?" And, if there was a designer, since we couldn't very well sue them, the 'product liability' boils down to little more than knowing who to curse when things break down. Ultimately, the only value the designer has to us is as a tidbit of knowledge. But, you already knew my take on the matter; hopefully, we can get some IDists in here to offer theirs. Jon
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by jar, posted 11-01-2010 8:14 PM | | jar has seen this message but not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 14 of 214 (589552)
11-03-2010 10:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 4 by Nij
11-03-2010 4:09 AM
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Re: First thoughts
Then there is the contrasting question about abiogenesis: "okay, we *know* it happened, why do we need to study it?" The answers in both cases are the same; "well, why not?" and "because we can". If the designer's existence had no impact on what we discovered in the past, why should it now? If there was a designer, there was always a designer: There was a designer when we discovered the Earth goes around the Sun; there was a designer when we discovered that the origins of the observable Universe rest with the Big Bang; there was a designer when we dropped some binary onto a circuit and called it a computer. If there was a designer, there was always a designer. The designer is a factoid; nothing more. Jon Edited by Jon, : Jon
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by Nij, posted 11-03-2010 4:09 AM | | Nij has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 18 of 214 (589570)
11-03-2010 12:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
11-03-2010 11:59 AM
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Re: It IS important
The only thing that bothers me about this is that I prefer an interactive designer, sorta like a player/owner in sports. The topic is about designers, though; not managers, which is what you describe. Jon
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by Phat, posted 11-03-2010 11:59 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by Phat, posted 11-03-2010 12:18 PM | | Jon has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 21 of 214 (589575)
11-03-2010 12:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 17 by Rahvin
11-03-2010 12:00 PM
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Re: It IS important
Essentially it would mean that life on Earth did not evolve naturally but is instead the result of some massive breeding program. Does that change anything? Does it matter who pushes the ball if we're only studying its movement?
Well, that's just the thing - if there is a designer with a plan for life on Earth, then the mechanisms we think drive evolution are wrong. What drives evolution now? Non-designerism?
Life would not diversify via natural, random mutation guided by natural selection, but would instead diversify by the guiding hand of the designer, who must cause specific mutations and select for specific features pursuant to his goal. This topic is about a designer, though; you are talking about a manager, an endless meddler. Does the designer of your car regularly come to your house to change what he's designed?
If there's a designer, there's a plan. If there's a plan, then, if we are able to ascertain what that plan is, we should be able to predict future evolutionary developments in humans and other species. What will the car of the future look like?
That said...the data we have (and we have an awful lot) shows that the predictions made from the mechanism of natural selection and mutation without a celestial breeder are basically a perfect fit for what we observe in reality. That would be an awfully large coincidence - that the designer's plan would perfectly match what appears to be a completely unplanned set of events. That's the equivalent of having a dog breeder somehow produce exactly the same results as dogs in the wild, selecting for exactly the same criteria that nature does. At that point, you'd have to question whether the breeder was actually a breeder at all - if his interference produces no different results, has he really interfered? Again, the topic is about a designer; not a meddler, not a manager. There might be something worth discussion in what you've said, but that's just not the topic as I understand it given what has been asked in the OP. Jon
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Rahvin, posted 11-03-2010 12:00 PM | | Rahvin has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 22 of 214 (589576)
11-03-2010 12:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
11-03-2010 12:18 PM
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Re: Its The Designers ,Stupid
OK, perhaps a better example would be Jack Nicklaus designing a golf course upon which he then plays. The way my simple fundie mind sees it, God sent His human son to experience the human that God created. We find meaning, value, and purpose in believing that a Designer not only created, but has participated in the human evolutionary experience. (at least I do) What does any of that have to do with the potential usefulness of knowing about a designer? Jon
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Phat, posted 11-03-2010 12:18 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 25 by Phat, posted 11-03-2010 1:29 PM | | Jon has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 27 of 214 (589599)
11-03-2010 1:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
11-03-2010 1:29 PM
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Re: Its The Designers ,Stupid
There is technically nothing useful in knowing God, since that whats this all about. There is absolutely nothing in this topic about knowing God. Jon
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Phat, posted 11-03-2010 1:29 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 28 by Phat, posted 11-03-2010 1:46 PM | | Jon has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Smaller Steps
I think our understandings are being hindered by trying to take in too much of the argument at once; if we take this one step at a time, we might have better luck understanding one another. So, to help me understand you, I have a few questions. First question: If there was a designer, there was always a designer. Agree, or disagree? Jon Edited by Jon, : edited
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Re: Smaller Steps
Jon writes: If there was a designer, there was always a designer. Agree, or disagree? Your formulation is ambiguous. Please clarify If it is true that there was a designer, has it always been true that there was a designer? Jon
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 61 of 214 (589807)
11-04-2010 3:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 58 by Rahvin
11-04-2010 12:06 PM
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Re: Smaller Steps
Thank you, Rahvin; bingo on the nose, for that one!
But I think what you're getting at is the fact that if a designer exists, then the designer exists whether we realized it or not. If we all lived underground and had never seen the sky and believed that it was green, and suddenly broke through to the surface and saw that the sky is actually blue, then the sky was actually blue all along and we were just wrong. With this great explanation, I'll wait for some of the other votes to come in before continuing on to the next question. Jon
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 58 by Rahvin, posted 11-04-2010 12:06 PM | | Rahvin has not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Re: Smaller Steps
If at time T there was D, then is it true between T and now that there was D at T? Yes Good. Very sorry for the poor wording, by the way. But with that in mind; time for the next question (easier one): If something is true, is it true? Jon
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Re: Smaller Steps
Jon writes: If something is true, is it true? ... yes. If evolution by means of natural selection is true, then it is true? If the Big Bang is true, then it is true? In fact, we could say this about any thing for which science has put forth an opinion: if that opinion is true, then it is true, no? Jon
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Re: Smaller Steps
Another strange concept: a true opinion. But let's not dwell on that. In fact let's not dwell, period. Cut to the chase, please. This last question is the chase. Your answering it will cut us straight there  Jon
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by Parasomnium, posted 11-05-2010 10:25 AM | | Parasomnium has replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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The Chase Cut
I did not say a 'true opinion'. If what one holds as an opinion on something is in fact true, then it is true. If I think something is one way, and it is indeed that way, then it is true that it is that way. The fact that I had an opinion on it does not rule out my opinion being wrong. But, this is going beyond the point. As the point I wanted to make: If it is true that there was a designer, then it is true that there was a designer; and if it is true that the opinions of science are accurate, then it is true that the opinions of science are accurate. These two things do not exclude one another. Thus, even if there WAS/IS a designer, it has no bearing on the things we have already or will discover as truths about our world. Jon
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Re: The Chase Cut
... our current way of doing so tells us that no designer was involved. This is likely to be a little off-topic, but science tells us no such thing. And I'm not sure how the rest of your post addresses anything... Jon Edited by Jon, : Extending italix
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by Parasomnium, posted 11-06-2010 3:49 PM | | Parasomnium has not replied |
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