Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   what would it take to convert you to the other side
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 136 of 139 (584334)
10-01-2010 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Percy
09-26-2010 8:06 PM


Re: Simple really...
Apologies for the delay in responding..
Percy writes:
I believe I said that producing empirical evidence of God is tough, not that I wasn't interested in empirical evidence. Empirical evidence is the only kind of evidence I am interested in.
Okay. But your being asked to project past 'it would be tough' to the point where 'I know God exists empirically' and examine empiricism from that perspective. I know you're not there but you don't need to be in order to consider the impact God's appearing would have on empiricism.
What I did say is that I have no idea what that empirical evidence would look like. If God had left a few scraps of possible evidence behind then perhaps it would be possible to make some educated guesses, but he is most notable for somehow leaving behind not a shred of evidence while being the most powerful being in the universe.
Objection appreciated - as it the objection which generally favors empirical knowledge vs. subjective 'knowledge'. But I'm not dealing with those objections here.
But the main point is that your insistence that God making himself empirically apparent would invalidate the empiricism by which he made himself apparent makes little sense,
Have you projected yourself into the position where God stands empirically before you (by God I mean "Creator of All")? Now look at empiricism and tell me what you see. Tell me where it's ability to provide you a degree of certainty regarding reality stems from.
But I'm not an unbelieving seeker.
You don't need to be to argue his case. It is the person who demands empirical evidence for the biblical God that I address. Unbelieving and in so demanding, seeking.
What would it take to convince you of my God, who unlike yours just happens to be consistent with the evidence?
I suppose it would involve a two-step approach. First dismantle my God so that I'm placed in a neutral position. Then argue convincingly for your God. The evidence for my God is overwhelming to me however - and I'm hoping you'll get to the point (via the issue under discussion) of realising that 'if God' then a person could be convinced in other-than-empirical ways.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Percy, posted 09-26-2010 8:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Percy, posted 10-04-2010 8:22 AM iano has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 137 of 139 (584799)
10-04-2010 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by iano
10-01-2010 12:05 PM


Re: Simple really...
iano writes:
What would it take to convince you of my God, who unlike yours just happens to be consistent with the evidence?
I suppose it would involve a two-step approach. First dismantle my God so that I'm placed in a neutral position. Then argue convincingly for your God.
Sounds like your requirements are the same as mine.
I'm getting the sense that the topic of this thread and what you want to discuss are two different things. I only piped up to point out the inherent contradiction in the claim that God revealing himself empirically would destroy the very empiricism he used to reveal himself. And then there's the further contradiction that it would only destroy empiricism with respect to God and not anything else. And then you contradict this in this message when you say God revealing himself empirically *would* affect all empiricism when you ask me to examine my "degree of certainty regarding reality." Plus you've said you accept empiricism for the mundane.
I'm not going to try to untangle your web of contradictions. If you want to untangle it for us then feel free. As far as the topic of the thread goes, I explained in Message 127 the issues associated with convincing me that the Christian God of a literally inerrant Bible was real, and if you want to discuss those then I'll be happy to reply.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 10-01-2010 12:05 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by iano, posted 10-05-2010 5:24 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 138 of 139 (585016)
10-05-2010 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Percy
10-04-2010 8:22 AM


Re: Simple really...
Percy writes:
I'm not going to try to untangle your web of contradictions. If you want to untangle it for us then feel free. As far as the topic of the thread goes, I explained in Message 127 the issues associated with convincing me that the Christian God of a literally inerrant Bible was real, and if you want to discuss those then I'll be happy to reply.
I've indeed taken things off topic. I'll propose a new thread for the off-topic topic. Cheers...
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Percy, posted 10-04-2010 8:22 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 139 of 139 (585019)
10-05-2010 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Percy
09-27-2010 8:26 AM


Re: Simple really...
Percy writes:
This makes it sound very simple, but what does "a manifestation of a god" look like. Can you tell it's a god just by looking at it? Does it have to do something before you know it's a God, like perform a miracle? If it performs a miracle, should the miracle be studied empirically (answer: YES, OF COURSE, ABSOLUTELY!). So how does a god manifest himself empirically?
But you're not just advocating a god, but *THE* Christian God of the literally inerrant Bible, so this makes the empirical requirements a bit more complicated. God demonstrating his existence empirically just proves he exists, but let's just grant for the sake of discussion that he somehow does this and I'm convinced he's God. But just because he's God doesn't say anything about whether he created the universe 6000 years ago in six days. There's all these little details from a literally inerrant Bible that make no sense if they're actually true.
So your God would have some explaining to do. If the world is really 6000 years old, then why does all the evidence say it is 4.56 billion years old. Did he place that evidence there? If so, how, and maybe more important, why?
There are scores of other questions just like this that derive from a literally inerrant Bible, and I won't become tedious by going into any detail about them, but one of the strengths of science is working out the relationships between all the data. A God of the literally inerrant Bible introduces a huge number of glaring inconsistencies between the claims of this God and the evidence from the natural world. We would have to understand a great deal about these inconsistencies before we could empirically accept that this God was the God of the literally inerrant Bible.
And that's why I said that the empirical requirement was a bit tough. I'm not hyper-skeptical. I'm just applying normal scientific standards.
Okay. Essentially you've outlined the extent of your empiricial demand, it's one that's more precise and scientifically rigorous than the average persons but it doesn't differ in essence from theirs: convincing empirical evidence then I'll believe.
My enquiry only really had to do with your views on empiricism - once satisfied it was God you were dealing with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Percy, posted 09-27-2010 8:26 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024