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Author Topic:   Not The Planet
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 306 (583030)
09-24-2010 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by New Cat's Eye
09-24-2010 10:48 AM


Re: Bigger Picture
Lots of fuzzy ideas about that.
The Bible is a great example. Look at the Bible stories of the Origin of the Moabites and Ammonites. In the Hebrew tales they are the children of an incestuous relationship between Lot and his daughters and so bad guys. Each of the religions have side stories that account for the existence of other people, usually a story that explains why they are friend or foe. And of course, each of the different religions have mutually exclusive stories.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-24-2010 10:48 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 107 of 306 (583066)
09-24-2010 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by New Cat's Eye
09-24-2010 10:33 AM


Re: Local Story
quote:
That doesn't really makes sense with the Lord being upset with man and wiping him out. Also, it implies that there were other men that the Lord did not make that were not wiped out. Too, other animals that the Lord did not make. Does that really fit?
I think jar answered that one, but yes it does fit with the attitudes of the time.
quote:
Even reading earth as 'ground' or land, I don't see the point of wiping out all the flesh because you regretted making it, but then only wiping out a small portion of it. Unless the Lord didn't make all the other flesh that wasn't included in the flood, but that doesn't fit, does it?
Or did they think there wasn't any other flesh outside of their land?
One other thing too:
They were stuck on the ark for 150 days, isn't that a bit long for a local flood?
You're trying to fit the story to your needs and understanding. Gods could take the people they created to task. It's what gods do and people expected. People associated natural disasters with being punished by their god(s).
As far as it lasting 150 days, it depends on which writer one is reading. According to the J writer the rain fell for 40 days and 40 nights. (Genesis 7:12 & 17) At the end of 40 days Noah opened the sent out the dove who found no land and then 7 days later he sent the dove again, who then brought an olive leaf. Seven days later the dove was sent again and didn't return. (Genesis 8:6, 8-12) In that story the total was about 60 days.
The 150 day timeline is part of the Priestly writing as is the raven.
So the myth grew over time.
After a tornado devastates a town, a local person can say everything was destroyed. They aren't talking about the planet. They are talking about their area. If an astronaut looking down on the earth after a natural disaster says that everything is destroyed, odds are he's talking about the portion of the planet he can see (if he could even tell if something was destroyed).
We've just been led to believe it was global.
Oddly enough only after the flood, God realizes that human inclinations are evil from youth according to the J writer. (IMO, God should have known that before the event.) But the story had its purpose as ringo pointed out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-24-2010 10:33 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 112 by Bailey, posted 09-28-2010 5:02 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 108 of 306 (583153)
09-25-2010 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
09-23-2010 4:11 AM


Special knowledge gained from religious texts
Oh yes, because them making great contributions to knowledge is definitely due to them being Jewish, and certainly not because they lived in an era of reason and the scientific method.
And of course, these discoveries are definitely evidence to support their deity being real, because there's absolutely no other way they could have developed these things without the guidance of the Torah.
See how your argument is flawed there?
In that case, the millions of contributions made by thousands of scientists that are Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Daoists and Hindus must be evidence of all of their holy texts being divine in origin.
And let's not even go near what the atheist scientists' contributions would mean, although it boils down to the following.
The people you listed did not gain their knowledge from the Torah or from their religion. They gained it from a system of reason and the use of objective evidence from the real world, exactly like every other person who made a major scientific discovery made during these times. Had they not made those discoveries, it is far more likely than not that some other person would have eventually done the same, and quite probable that it would not have been much later than the existing date of discovery.
The Jews are no more special than any other group of humans on Earth. They have not gained special knowledge simply through being Jews, and nor have they gained (useful scientific) knowledge about the real world from reading their holy texts.
The point doctorbill made was that Genesis, amongst most religious stories, is not intended to impart knowledge about the real world; it is intended to supply spiritual advice and to explain events in a supernatural, often metaphorical manner. Attempting to use it for the former purpose is pointless, because it doesn't contain anything remotely suitable. Your counterargument was wrong -- "since Jews made useful discoveries, their holy writings must be useful for finding advanced knowledge" -- a post hoc fallacy because it is simply not the case that one followed from the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2010 4:11 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 09-25-2010 2:08 PM Nij has not replied
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 109 of 306 (583209)
09-25-2010 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by purpledawn
09-24-2010 1:49 PM


Re: Local Story
So the myth grew over time.
Which is probably what all the stories in Genesis are, myths that grew as time went on until they were compiled after Israel adopted the Phoenician alphabet ~1050BCE to ~300BCE there or about.
This would also apply to Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges etc.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by purpledawn, posted 09-24-2010 1:49 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 110 of 306 (583227)
09-25-2010 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Nij
09-25-2010 4:37 AM


Re: Special knowledge gained from religious texts
Hi Nij,
My aren't we touchy today.
Nij writes:
The point doctorbill made was that Genesis, amongst most religious stories, is not intended to impart knowledge about the real world;
Here is the statement doctrbill made that I had replied too.
In Message 89 doctrbill said:
doctrbill writes:
Perhaps the most persuasive reason to believe Genesis was NOT intended to reveal advanced knowledge is that its creators and target audience, the Jews, God's chosen people, did not, in 5,000 years of chosen people history, produce a single aspirin or roll of toilet paper with which to amaze us heathen folk. Just like everyone else in the ancient Middle East (and some in the modern Middle East) they used their fingers.
I replied:
Are you sure about that?
Since Abraham lived around 2300 BC they still got about 690 years to go to get your 5,000 years in.
Had doctrbill's statement been:
Perhaps the most persuasive reason to believe Genesis was NOT intended to reveal advanced knowledge is that its creators did not, produce a single aspirin or roll of toilet paper with which to amaze us heathen folk. Just like everyone else in the ancient Middle East (and some in the modern Middle East) they used their fingers.
Then I would not have even given his statement a thought.
But he had t add an anti semetic message when he added:
and target audience, the Jews, God's chosen people, did not, in 5,000 years of chosen people history,
That 5,000 years still has 690 years to go.
So his statement infered that the Jews God's chosen people were a bunch of idiots not capleable of doing or accomplishing anything.
Nij writes:
See how your argument is flawed there?
What argument is flawed.
I made no argument.
I simply posted the names of 172 Jews who were Nobel winners.
I then stated:
ICANT writes:
When you get the egg off your face you can apoligize to God's chosen people.
in Message 93
doctrbill owes God's chosen people the Jews a written apology in this thread.
Regardless of what you think he said or what he meant to say he insulted every Jew that has ever lived or will live for the next 690 years.
Jews he insulted included such men as: Albert Einstein, Niels Bohr, Max Born, Phillips Richard Feynman, and Jerome Fiedman just to mention a few.
All for the purpose of bashing God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Nij, posted 09-25-2010 4:37 AM Nij has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 306 (583697)
09-28-2010 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by purpledawn
09-24-2010 1:49 PM


Re: Local Story
quote:
That doesn't really makes sense with the Lord being upset with man and wiping him out. Also, it implies that there were other men that the Lord did not make that were not wiped out. Too, other animals that the Lord did not make. Does that really fit?
I think jar answered that one, but yes it does fit with the attitudes of the time.
So our god made us, but not the people over there (nor their animals?). And when all the land was flooded, god had Noah build an ark with 2 of all of our animals so that our people were not wiped out by this flood that covered all of our land. But it didn't kill all those people over there nor any of their animals.
That's how you think the audience understood it!?
You're trying to fit the story to your needs and understanding.
No, not really. I'm not forcing any conclusion here, I trying to find the support for the best one.
I can see how a local flood could fit with the story, but I don't think that it must be a local one and I still think it possible that they understood it to be a worldwide flood.
All in all, its pretty damn vague.
Gods could take the people they created to task. It's what gods do and people expected. People associated natural disasters with being punished by their god(s).
Yeah, yeah... but the story just doesn't make sense with it just being a small portion of the whole land being flooded. All that rain and that huge-ass boat with all those animals, and all that time, just for some little flood that only killed a fraction of the world's populations. Seems dubious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by purpledawn, posted 09-24-2010 1:49 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2010 5:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
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Bailey
Member (Idle past 4369 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 112 of 306 (583728)
09-28-2010 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by purpledawn
09-24-2010 1:49 PM


On Flood Variants ..
pd writes:
cs writes:
One other thing too:
They were stuck on the ark for 150 days, isn't that a bit long for a local flood?
As far as it lasting 150 days, it depends on which writer one is reading. According to the J writer the rain fell for 40 days and 40 nights. (Genesis 7:12 & 17) At the end of 40 days Noah opened the sent out the dove who found no land and then 7 days later he sent the dove again, who then brought an olive leaf. Seven days later the dove was sent again and didn't return. (Genesis 8:6, 8-12) In that story the total was about 60 days.
The 150 day timeline is part of the Priestly writing as is the raven.
So the myth grew over time.
I'm not sure the conclusion portayed above necessarily follows, in the sense that 'the myth (singular) grew overtime'. That still seems a bit ambiguous.
With history being a game of probability and all, perhaps it may be as fair and a bit more specific to say that the myths (plural) grew independently of one another in separate regions after their descent from a common myth. This may begin to lend rational support towards why the myths actually evolved.
If this was the case, one may expect to find distict variation - kinda like the beaks of Darwin's finches, in the details of the myths when comparing the separate tradition's adhered to within the northern kingdom of Yisrael and that which was adhered to within the southern kingdom of Yuhdea.
Granted, none of this considers whether or not the correlating authors intended to portray their flood stories as a local or world wide event.
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by purpledawn, posted 09-24-2010 1:49 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 306 (583730)
09-28-2010 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Bailey
09-28-2010 5:02 PM


Re: On Flood Variants ..
If this was the case, one may expect to find distict variation - kinda like the beaks of Darwin's finches, in the details of the myths when comparing the separate tradition's adhered to within the northern kingdom of Yisrael and that which was adhered to within the southern kingdom of Yuhdea.
And we find just that variation, much like the beaks. The descriptions of when the flood will happen, what gets killed, what should be taken, how long the flood lasted all are different. That is particularly obvious in Genesis 6&7.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Bailey, posted 09-28-2010 5:02 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Bailey, posted 09-29-2010 1:45 PM jar has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4369 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 114 of 306 (583908)
09-29-2010 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
09-28-2010 5:04 PM


Re: On Flood Variants ..
jar writes:
weary writes:
If this was the case, one may expect to find distict variation - kinda like the beaks of Darwin's finches, in the details of the myths when comparing the separate tradition's adhered to within the northern kingdom of Yisrael and that which was adhered to within the southern kingdom of Yuhdea.
And we find just that variation, much like the beaks.
Coincidence, or something more
The descriptions of when the flood will happen, what gets killed, what should be taken, how long the flood lasted all are different.
An attentive reader will note all of those distinctions and more, such as the variant dove and raven traditions earlier suggested by purpledawn.
Personally, I continue to find the authors's treatments of the diety's character and the diety's namesake to be interesting, if not revealing.
That is particularly obvious in Genesis 6&7.
Indeed.
Many of these distinctions are so evident they're often pointed out by children. And if so inclined, one may begin to develop each of the separate narratives independently of one another with relative ease; resulting in the similiar - yet unique, exposition of the two stories, each with their own measure of continuity. R.E. Friedman offers a reasonable treatment of this view on pages 54-59 of his work "Who Wrote the Bible?".
In that portion of the booklet he presents a practice exercise of sorts where the dual sources encapsulated within the biblical account of Noah's ark are printed in different fonts. It is suggested that if one reads either source from beginning to end, and then goes back and reads the remaining source, they will be able to perceive two complete and continuous accounts themselves.
For anyone who's interested, I've taken a few minutes to attempt a recreation of this experience, with the Yahwist - or J, in yellow, and P in orange ..

6:5 ~ And Yahweh saw that the evil of humankind had become great on the earth, and all the inclination of the thoughts of their heart was only evil all the day.
6:6 ~ And Yahweh regretted that he had made humankind on the earth, and he was grieved to his heart.
6:7 ~ And Yahweh said, I will wipe humankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth — everything from humankind to beast to creeping thing to bird of the heavens, for I regret that I have made them.
6:8 ~ But Noah found favor in Yahweh's eyes.
6:9 ~ This is the account of Noah. Noah was a godly man; blameless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with God.
6:10 ~ And Noah sired three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
6:11 ~ And the earth was ruined in the sight of God; and the earth was filled with violence.
6:12 ~ And God saw the earth, and here it was corrupted, for all flesh had corrupted its way on the earth.
6:13 ~ And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before me, for the earth is filled with violence because of them, and here I am going to destroy them with the earth.
6:14 ~ Make for yourself an ark of cypress wood. Make rooms in the ark, and cover it with pitch inside and out.
6:15 ~ And this is how you should make it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high.
6:16 ~ Make a roof for the ark and finish it, leaving 18 inches from the top. Put a door in the side of the ark, and make lower, middle, and upper decks.
6:17 ~ And here I am bringing the flood, waters over the earth, to destroy from under the sky all the living creatures that have the breath of life in them. Everything that is on the land will die,
6:18 ~ And I shall establish my covenant with you. And you shall enter the ark — you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you.
6:19 ~ And of all the living, of all the flesh, you shall bring two into the ark to keep alive with you, they shall be male and female.
6:20 ~ Of the birds after their kinds, and of the beasts after their kinds, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you so you can keep them alive.
6:21 ~ And you must take for yourself every kind of food that is eaten, and gather it together. It will be food for you and for them.
6:22 ~ And Noah did all that God commanded him — he did indeed.
7:1 ~ And Yahweh said to Noah, Come into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen you as righteous before me in this generation.
7:2 ~ You must take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, man and his woman; and of the beasts which are not clean, two of every kind, man and his woman,
7:3 ~ Also of the birds of the heavens seven pair, male and female, to keep alive seed on the face of the earth.
7:4 ~ For in seven days I will cause it to rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the ground every living thing that I have made.
7:5 ~ And Noah did all that Yahweh commanded him.
7:6 ~ And Noah was 600 years old, and the flood was on the earth.
7:7~ And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wifes with him came to the ark from before the waters of the flood.
7:8 ~ Of the clean beasts and of the beasts which were not clean, and of the birds and of all those which creep upon the earth,
7:9 ~ Two of each came to Noah to the ark, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.
7:10 ~ And after seven days the floodwaters engulfed the earth.
7:11 ~ In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month — on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
7:12 ~ And there was rain on the earth, forty days and forty nights.
7:13 ~ In this very day, Noah entered the ark, accompanied by his sons Shem, Ham, and Japheth, along with his wife and his sons’ three wives.
7:14 ~ They entered, along with every living creature according to their kind, and all the beasts according to their kind, and all the creeping things that creep on the earth according to their kind, and all the birds according to their kind, and every winged bird.
7:15 ~ And they came to Noah to the ark, two of each, of all flesh in which is the breath of life.
7:16 ~ And those which entered were male and female, some of all flesh came, just as God commanded him. And Yahweh closed it for him.
7:17 ~ And the flood was on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and the waters increased and raised the ark, and it was lifted from the earth.
7:18 ~ And the waters grew strong and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark went on the surface of the waters.
7:19 ~ And the waters grew very very strong on the earty, and they covered all the high mountains that are under all the heavens.
7:20 ~ Twenty feet above, the waters grew stronger, and they covered the mountains.
7:21 ~ And all living flesh, those that creep on the earth, the birds, the beasts, and the wild animals, and all the swarming things that swarm on the earth, and all humankind expired.
7:22 ~ Everything that had the breathing spirit of life in its nostrils, everything that was on the dry ground, died.
7:23 ~ And he wiped out all the substance that was on the face of the earth, from humankind to beast, to creeping thing, and to bird of the heavens, and they were wiped out from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark survived.
7:24 ~ And the waters grew strong on the earth a hundred fifty days.
8:1 ~ And God remembered Noah and all the living, and all the beasts that were with him in the ark, and God passed a wind over the earth and the waters were decreased.
8:2 ~ And the fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were shut, and the rain stopped falling from the heavens.
8:3 ~ And the waters kept receding from the earth continually, and the waters were abated by the end of a hundred fifty days.
8:4 ~ On the seventeenth day of the seventh month, the ark came to rest on one of the mountains of Ararat.
8:5 ~ The waters kept on receding until the tenth month. On the first day of the tenth month, the tops of the mountains became visible.
8:6 ~ And it was at the end of forty days, and Noah opened the window he had made in the ark
8:7 ~ And he sent out a raven; aand it went back and forth until the waters had dried up on the earth.
8:8 ~ And he sent out a dove from him to see whether the waters had eased from the face of the earth.
8:9 ~ And the dove could not find a resting place for its foot, and it returned to him on the ark, for waters were on the face of the earth, and he put out his hand and took it and brought it to him to the ark.
8:10 ~ And he waited seven more days and then sent out the dove again from the ark.
8:11 ~ And the dove came back, and here was an olive leaf torn off in its mouth, and Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth.
8:12 ~ And he waited another seven days and sent the dove out again, and it did not return to him again.
8:13 ~ And it was in the six hundred and first year, in the first day of the first month, the waters dried up from the earth. And Noah turned back the covering of the ark and looked, and here the face if the eart had dried.
8:14 ~ And in the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth dried up.
8:15 ~ And God spoke to Noah, saying,
8:16 ~ Go out from the ark, you and your wife and your sons' wives with you.
8:17 ~ Bring out with you all the living creatures that are with you. Bring out every living thing, including the birds, animals, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. Let them increase and be fruitful and multiply on the earth.
8:18 ~ And Noah went out along with his sons, his wife, and his sons’ wives.
8:19 ~ All the living things, all the creeping things and all the birds, all that creep on the earth, by their families, they went out of the ark.
8:20 ~ And Noah built an altar to Yahweh. He then took some of every kind of clean animal and clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
8:21 ~ And Yahweh smelled the soothing aroma, and Yahweh said to his heart, I will never again curse the ground because of humankind, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from their youth. I will never again strike all the living as I have just done.
8:22 ~ While the earth continues to exist, planting time and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, and day and night will not cease.
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 09-28-2010 5:04 PM jar has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 115 of 306 (584708)
10-03-2010 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by New Cat's Eye
09-28-2010 2:35 PM


Re: Local Story
quote:
So our god made us, but not the people over there (nor their animals?). And when all the land was flooded, god had Noah build an ark with 2 of all of our animals so that our people were not wiped out by this flood that covered all of our land. But it didn't kill all those people over there nor any of their animals.
That's how you think the audience understood it!?
Not necessarily in that way. You have a bigger view. The J tribal story, the audience wouldn't be thinking of "other people". They are listening to a story that tells them how the various Semitic groups came to be. This isn't a planetary myth. It is a local myth. They had their own god and others had their own god. Shrink your perspective.
quote:
No, not really. I'm not forcing any conclusion here, I trying to find the support for the best one.
I can see how a local flood could fit with the story, but I don't think that it must be a local one and I still think it possible that they understood it to be a worldwide flood.
All in all, its pretty damn vague.
You have a wider view. They could not understand it as a planetary flood since they didn't know they were on a planet or that more existed than what was known to them as I showed you in the Flat Earth thread with the various maps in Message 471.
The Babylonian map of 2500 BCE. Flat disk encircled by water.
quote:
Yeah, yeah... but the story just doesn't make sense with it just being a small portion of the whole land being flooded. All that rain and that huge-ass boat with all those animals, and all that time, just for some little flood that only killed a fraction of the world's populations. Seems dubious.
A story doesn't take long to create. Much easier than building a boat. A natural disaster inspires a story. Not unusual. Exaggeration was a normal part of story telling.

The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. --Gospel of Mary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-28-2010 2:35 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ICANT, posted 10-03-2010 11:51 PM purpledawn has replied
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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 116 of 306 (584715)
10-03-2010 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by New Cat's Eye
09-28-2010 2:35 PM


Re: Local Story
Yeah, yeah... but the story just doesn't make sense with it just being a small portion of the whole land being flooded. All that rain and that huge-ass boat with all those animals, and all that time, just for some little flood that only killed a fraction of the world's populations. Seems dubious.
if you would live in a small town you would know how actual events can be blown out of proportion by gossip or story telling
moste probably there was a huge flood and a guy used a small boat to save some people and some animals or there could have been no guy at all he could have been added later there could have been many whit small boats saving what they could and they got merged in to one. and all of this merging adding and exsagerating could have been done in a few generations.
in a period of 2 months a accident of a friend of mine got blown so out of proportion you could not belive.
truth: he crashed not his foult but a noter driver, almost died got sown back together left the hospital after 2 months
the last version of the story before he came back.
he had an accident died on the spot he was the the guilty party in the accident, the funiral was nice many where there, his mom got a nervus brake down and was in a psihiatric hospital.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-28-2010 2:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 117 of 306 (584757)
10-03-2010 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by purpledawn
10-03-2010 5:26 PM


Re: Local Story
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
You have a wider view. They could not understand it as a planetary flood since they didn't know they were on a planet or that more existed than what was known to them as I showed you in the Flat Earth thread with the various maps in Message 471.
Do you mean they thought it looked like my avatar?
Why wouldn't they think it looked that way?
According to Genesis all the dry land was in one place which means it would be sourounded with water.
According to the maps you presented the land mass was in one place at 2500 BC then divided into different locations after the flood which occured around 2345 BC. Your next map is about 1700 years later.
You actually presented evidence that supports the Biblical account of the land mass being in one place and was then divided in the days of Peleg like the Bible says.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2010 5:26 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by purpledawn, posted 10-04-2010 6:52 AM ICANT has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 118 of 306 (584784)
10-04-2010 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by ICANT
10-03-2010 11:51 PM


Known World
quote:
According to the maps you presented the land mass was in one place at 2500 BC then divided into different locations after the flood which occured around 2345 BC. Your next map is about 1700 years later.
You actually presented evidence that supports the Biblical account of the land mass being in one place and was then divided in the days of Peleg like the Bible says.
No it doesn't. All they show is the land known to man at the time.
Babylon was the center of their "world". They mapped their region, not the planet.
As more is discovered or known, the maps changed.

The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. --Gospel of Mary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ICANT, posted 10-03-2010 11:51 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by ICANT, posted 10-04-2010 11:51 AM purpledawn has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 119 of 306 (584803)
10-04-2010 9:03 AM


I think that Jesus's warnings about the rapture implied a round planet.
"I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left.
There will be two women grinding together; the one will be taken buit the other will be left.
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. " (Luke 17:34-37)
Since Christ cautioned that some people will be doing day time activities, ie. working in the field, and others nighttime activites, ie. sleeping on a bed, it follows His coming will be at day for some and at night for others.
That implies a round planet.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 306 (584821)
10-04-2010 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by purpledawn
10-03-2010 5:26 PM


Re: Local Story
The J tribal story, the audience wouldn't be thinking of "other people". They are listening to a story that tells them how the various Semitic groups came to be. This isn't a planetary myth. It is a local myth. They had their own god and others had their own god.
I'm still left wondering if the audience thought the story only pertained to their group of people and if it excluded the other people that they knew of. If we look at the precursor, the flood story from the Epic of Gilgamesh, we see that the purpose of the flood was to destroy mankind. I brought this up in Message 26, holy cow that was 1.5 years ago!, with emphasis now:
quote:
Sumerian
The earliest extant flood myth is contained in the fragmentary Sumerian Eridu Genesis, datable by its script to the 17th century BC.
The story tells how the god Enki warns Ziusudra (meaning "he saw life," in reference to the gift of immortality given him by the gods), of the gods' decision to destroy mankind in a floodthe passage describing why the gods have decided this is lost. Enki instructs Ziusudra (also known as Atrahasis) to build a large boatthe text describing the instructions is also lost. After which he is left to repopulate the earth, as in many other flood myths.
They could have been referring to just themselves as "mankind", I suppose, but they were also aware of other people that were not "them". I wonder if they thought these other people were part of the mankind that the flood was suppose to destroy. If they included these other people, then that would imply that the flood in their story was larger than a local one that just destroyed their own people.
You have a wider view. They could not understand it as a planetary flood since they didn't know they were on a planet
I know, that's irrelevant to the point I'm making now.
The Babylonian map of 2500 BCE. Flat disk encircled by water.
Okay, so lets say they thought that everthing on that map was flooded, i.e. their whole world. All of mankind in the world was suppose to have been destroyed save the guy who builds the boat.
To them, this would have been a worldwide flood.
I've been saying the same thing since Message 24:
quote:
The idea behind the story is that god wiped the entire slate clean, but the people at the time thought the entire slate was limited to their corner. Now that we know that their corner was not the entire slate, I don't think we should be limiting the wiping to just their corner. The point of the story was that it was the enitre slate, regardless of what the people at the time thought that emcompassed.
I think the point of the story implies a worldwide flood.
A story doesn't take long to create. Much easier than building a boat. A natural disaster inspires a story. Not unusual. Exaggeration was a normal part of story telling.
I still wonder what the audience thought: whether it was their own group by itself or them and all the other people in the world who were destroyed by the flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2010 5:26 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 10-04-2010 12:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 124 by purpledawn, posted 10-04-2010 1:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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