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Author Topic:   Has The Supernatural Hypothesis Failed?
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 346 of 549 (583388)
09-26-2010 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Jon
09-26-2010 2:50 PM


Re: Claims on the Natural World are NOT Supernatural
How are you defining supernatural?
Looking at the devlopment of our understanding of the Universe over the past several thousand years, my overwhelming conclusion is that the supernatural is precisely that that has nothing to do with reality.
If someone wants to claim that there is something "supernatural" about the orgin of life or the origin of existence, then they really need to come up with a new word to explain exactly what it is they mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Jon, posted 09-26-2010 2:50 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Jon, posted 09-26-2010 8:26 PM cavediver has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 347 of 549 (583392)
09-26-2010 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Jon
09-26-2010 5:51 PM


Re: Probable
I'm locked in a hotel room on Cape Cod with a beautiful woman and my iPhone, so I must be brief.
You're full of fresh mouth, so suck it up.
Funny that you ignore hundreds of words of debate, but reply to one word of mockery--and that milder than your own.
Make substantive replies, and you'll get some back.

Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Jon, posted 09-26-2010 5:51 PM Jon has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 348 of 549 (583397)
09-26-2010 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by cavediver
09-26-2010 6:41 PM


Re: Claims on the Natural World are NOT Supernatural
Looking at the devlopment of our understanding of the Universe over the past several thousand years, my overwhelming conclusion is that the supernatural is precisely that that has nothing to do with reality.
First, thank you for being the only person to offer a definition. Second, I've another question:
In what way does the supernatural have nothing to do with reality?
I feel our definitions are mostly in agreement, but I'd like just a little more clarification.
Again, thank you for a serious reply.
Jon

"Can we say the chair on the cat, for example? Or the basket in the person? No, we can't..." - Harriet J. Ottenheimer
"Dim bulbs save on energy..." - jar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by cavediver, posted 09-26-2010 6:41 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by cavediver, posted 09-27-2010 4:51 PM Jon has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 349 of 549 (583478)
09-27-2010 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Jon
09-25-2010 12:47 AM


warm breeze
No, that's not what I'm saying.
Well then can you explain, because this:
Jon writes:
You cannot refute something using empirical evidence when the something you are attempting to refute is in its very character non-empirical and beyond the realm of nature.
Is you claiming that a phenomenon is beyond the realm of nature and thus beyond the realm of science.
If so, how do you know that?
It is customary to avoid misrepresenting the viewpoints of others, but I'll assume this was an accident.
It was no accident, that is exactly what I thought you said, that's why I asked if that's what you meant.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Jon, posted 09-25-2010 12:47 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by Jon, posted 09-29-2010 8:16 PM onifre has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 350 of 549 (583479)
09-27-2010 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Jon
09-26-2010 8:26 PM


Re: Claims on the Natural World are NOT Supernatural
First, thank you for being the only person to offer a definition.
I am convinced that sound definitions are the crux of any discussion. Their lack is why so many discussions fail. They are the ultimate strength of science, mathematics, and good philosophy - all three fall apart the moment a loose or imprecise definition is included in part of an argument. Coversely, lack of sound definition is the bedrock of religion and superstition.
In what way does the supernatural have nothing to do with reality?
In the most fundemental way. It is a meaningless term precisely because it has never had any connection with reality. It has zero success in providing any form of consistent predictive power, and thus I can substitute gibberish for any given supernatural explanation and achieve equal success. This is in stark contrast to reality. I thus conclude that the supernatural is synonymous with that that is not real, that that does not exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Jon, posted 09-26-2010 8:26 PM Jon has replied

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 351 of 549 (583480)
09-27-2010 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Jon
09-25-2010 12:51 AM


warm pancakes
Outside of nature; beyond nature.
And what does that mean? Where is the line where nature stops and "beyond" begins?
With some minor tweaks, I'd accept that as a suitable example of something supernatural, even if the actions of Thor are not supernatural, but instead (supposedly) interrupt the natural orders of our world.
You mean Thor the fictional, made up character of mythology is an example of something supernatural?
So then so would superman?
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

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 Message 321 by Jon, posted 09-25-2010 12:51 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 352 of 549 (583648)
09-28-2010 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by Straggler
09-24-2010 3:08 PM


Re: Probable
Straggler writes:
Well if it is "unknowable" how can the concept of it it be derived from anything other than human imagination?
Any correlation between that which can be humanly imagined and that which might actually exist being "improbable" at best.
Yes, improbable except, "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt in your phylosophy."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 353 of 549 (583650)
09-28-2010 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by onifre
09-27-2010 4:54 PM


Re: warm pancakes
Onfire writes:
And what does that mean? Where is the line where nature stops and "beyond" begins?
The exact spot where Angels dance on pinheads.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by onifre, posted 09-27-2010 4:54 PM onifre has replied

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 354 of 549 (583656)
09-28-2010 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by 1.61803
09-28-2010 12:00 PM


Re: warm pancakes
The exact spot where Angels dance on pinheads.
So on the tip of your dick?
- Oni

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 Message 353 by 1.61803, posted 09-28-2010 12:00 PM 1.61803 has not replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 355 of 549 (583687)
09-28-2010 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by 1.61803
09-28-2010 12:00 PM


Re: warm pancakes
I was speaking metaphorically. About the pointlessness of arguing the supernatural. tounge in cheek. There ya go another metaphor ripe with sophmoronic humor at you grasp.
Edited by 1.61803, : spelling

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 356 of 549 (583688)
09-28-2010 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by 1.61803
09-28-2010 12:00 PM


Re: warm pancakes
Deleted.
Edited by 1.61803, : double post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by 1.61803, posted 09-28-2010 12:00 PM 1.61803 has not replied

barbara
Member (Idle past 4801 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 357 of 549 (583703)
09-28-2010 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by 1.61803
09-28-2010 2:12 PM


Re: The Supernatural does have merit
Most people feel some sort of connection to the supernatural world because most of the living entities that live in us and all around us is invisible to the naked eye. Feeling we are not alone is a fact now with modern technology that allows some people to see those invisible entities of life.
The environment that we live is the primary factor that interacts with our cells that promotes all of the other mechanisms that is involved in evolution and how you grow to become who you are today. The "environment" are those invisible beings of life.
As children we are more sensitive to them and this may explain the fear of the "boogyman" or the dark when children try to go to sleep. Growth typically occurs at night while you are sleeping and anyone studying microbes is that they prefer to replicate faster in the dark then the light. Our DNA does not complete the process all my itself it still requires the environment to complete us.
The feeling we are created stems from that we were basically since science has determined that our cell was born from a fusion of the other 2 domains of life.
The connection lies here but the problem is how the story is told depending on which side of the fence you are on creation verses science. The find it amusing the ongoing debates between sides when they both share many similarities but are lost in how each side describes the observation completely different from each other.

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 358 of 549 (583704)
09-28-2010 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Straggler
09-24-2010 12:53 PM


CS if we have confidence in space-time curvature as being the cause of gravitational effects how can we consider it anything other than unlikely that dancing angels are the cause of gravitational effects?
What makes space-time curvature cause gravitational effects?
Let me put it this way:
You make your observations and see what's reliable and then you put that in the "Keep" pile. The unobserved and/or unreliable are left in the "Unknown" pile. The falsified is put in the "Discard" pile.
Just because something hasn't made it to the Keep pile doesn't mean its in the Discard pile. Now, you can certainly discard things in the Unknown pile because you think they probably aren't true because you think someone just made it up, but that's not a conclusion you've arrived at from some observation.
I think The Dude said it best:
On the other hand, being not being reliable doesn't mean we can't have confidence in it, nor does being the product of human imagination. On a daily basis I'm confident in things that are a product of my imagination that I cannot show are reliable.
Like, if my girlfriend hasn't eaten in a while, then she's probably going to be crabby and I shouldn't do "this or that". I can't show thats reliable and it came from my imagination, ergo its most likely incorrect, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Straggler, posted 09-24-2010 12:53 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by onifre, posted 09-28-2010 4:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 370 by Straggler, posted 09-29-2010 3:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 359 of 549 (583723)
09-28-2010 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by 1.61803
09-28-2010 2:12 PM


Re: warm pancakes
I was speaking metaphorically. About the pointlessness of arguing the supernatural.
Oh I'm sorry, you must be under the impression that I care that you think these conversations are pointless.
Maybe I can interest you in some youtube videos of people getting kicked in the balls so your time is spent less wastefully?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by 1.61803, posted 09-28-2010 2:12 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by 1.61803, posted 09-29-2010 2:41 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 360 of 549 (583724)
09-28-2010 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by New Cat's Eye
09-28-2010 3:07 PM


Yo wud up biatch, where you been?
Just to stay on topic,
What makes space-time curvature cause gravitational effects?
Mass density.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-28-2010 3:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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