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Author Topic:   Hypothesis of Microbes
AZPaul3
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Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 3 of 18 (582226)
09-20-2010 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by barbara
09-20-2010 1:10 AM


Vessels of Survival
There is a lot to answer here.
The first major push back is the connotation of "intent" and "purpose" on the part of bacteria. These are human constructs with no force in the universe. Bacteria are, most simply, very flexible life forms that adapt, through evolution, to various environments be that in a crack in the rock deep in the crust or in your nasal cavity.
The second point is to consider further back from bacteria. Regardless of which abiogenic model is considered, a self-replicating chain of molecules came into existence and, under the forces of evolution, complex chemical structures resulted. Those self-replicating chains that blindly, un-purposefully, evolved structures that aided its replication survived. The complex chemical structures around which these evolving self-replicating chains were encased were simply survival vessels aiding in replication.
From viruses to bacteria, from oak trees to pretty girls, all "life" is merely the complex structure, the survival vessel, for the evolving complex forms of the original self-replicating chain that started this whole thing off some 3+ billion years ago.
Since all life forms work in colonies of kin and non related beings within our bodies and throughout the entire biosphere, directed existence speaks for all living entities on the planet.
This is fallacious. You need to reconsider.
The fossil evidence proves we are replaceable entities in that 99% are extinct while the bacteria have remained the same since their origin.
This "interpretation" of the fossil record "proves" no such thing.
I will leave the obvious religious points you make to others.
Edited by AZPaul3, : spileng prublims

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 Message 1 by barbara, posted 09-20-2010 1:10 AM barbara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by barbara, posted 09-21-2010 3:32 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 5 of 18 (582545)
09-21-2010 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by barbara
09-21-2010 3:32 PM


Re: Vessels of Survival
There are dozens of definitions of "life" each with its own pluses and minuses. Unfortunately, for each definition you try to make there exists something that just doesn't fit.
The problem is that "life" is also a human construct with no efficacy outside the human need to classify things.
To have your definition of "life" you need to draw a line somewhere in the chemistry from "non-life" to "life." It is like drawing a line at a specific minute to determine the exact switch from Early- to Mid-Bronze age. Bad analogy. It is even worse than this. Try drawing a line between "non-history" and "history."
The chemistry rests on a continuum from that very first simple self-replicating molecule all the way to your mother with no convenient spaces or lines. So where is the demarcation in this chemistry between "non-life" and "life"? There is none.
The same is true between colonies of bacteria, colonies of bacteria with some members having specialized functions, colonies with more advanced schemes of specialization, all the way up to single multi-cellular organisms. And anyone looking will have an impossible task determining the lines between these.
The definition of "life" that I have adopted is wholly inadequate, but it is the best one I have ever found that fits the continuum. Life is blind complex chemistry in continuous action.
I understand this is not something that fits well with a religiously oriented person. But if you want a scientific answer to your speculation that bacteria, with purpose and intent, created us so they would have some place to live, then, sorry, no, that is not at all evident. What is evident is that we, and bacteria, are the evolved survival vessels for the evolved versions of the first replicators. All without purpose or intent; just blind complex chemistry in continuous action.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : clarifications

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 Message 4 by barbara, posted 09-21-2010 3:32 PM barbara has replied

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 Message 6 by barbara, posted 09-22-2010 10:12 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 8 of 18 (582635)
09-22-2010 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by barbara
09-22-2010 10:12 AM


Re: Vessels of Survival
it will produce chaos and rebellion towards government and its laws that control them.
Connect the dots for me, please. I do not see the logical connection between the acceptance of science and the anarchy you speculate here.
If you are proposing that the old contradiction in terms "religious morality" is what is keeping peace in society then you should see other threads in this forum first.
Are Fundamentalists Inherently Immoral
Many Christians Lack Responsibility
Is religion good for us?
plus a whole lot others. Search "morality", "religious morality", "secular morality" in forum Search.
If there are other reasons you see this anarchy resulting then please explain.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 12 of 18 (582792)
09-23-2010 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Larni
09-23-2010 8:20 AM


Re: Vessels of Survival
Because there is no reason to behave in a decent way towards others unless one is a xian.
Elsewhere I was informed that as an atheist I was actually a christian inside. Now you're telling me that all this goody two-shoes stuff I've been doing is because I really am a christian?
So in a week here I've gone from atheist to christian-atheist to full blown christian?
Any other surprises you folks aren't telling me?
Woman? Black? Gay?
By the way, since I am now a christian do I get to wear one of those pointy hats?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Larni, posted 09-23-2010 8:20 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by barbara, posted 09-23-2010 3:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 14 by Larni, posted 09-23-2010 3:27 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 16 of 18 (582816)
09-23-2010 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by barbara
09-23-2010 3:07 PM


Re: Vessels of Survival
You can not be serious, barbara.
The majority of the population of Orleans Parish were staunch Catholic and Southern Baptist. None of them ever heard my definition of "life" and certainly would have rejected it if they had. Yet, they still descended into anarchy.
This is what happens when the protections of government and the organs of society collapse and peoples' lives hang in the balance. They will do whatever is necessary to survive. It has nothing to do with their religious or political views. It has to do with staying alive.
God and government are not separate entities even though they pretend that they are.
I really hope you did not mean that. I would hate to think of the US government as "God." And if god runs the US government then he is more screwed up and incompetent than we ever imagined.
Now as for the melding of god/government, as in a religiously controlled state, then in Saudi Arabia and Iran, this is true. But not here.
The separation of church and state (any church whether your god, their god, someone else's god or no god at all) is not just codified in the law but is rigorously enforced in the courts and by larger and larger segments of our society. And this nation continues to do quite well with this separation despite the religious insistence to the contrary.
But this has nothing to do with the intent of bacteria to build homes or any effect of my definition of "life" on the greater society.
You seem to be all over the map here barbara. What is the topic of the OP?

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 17 of 18 (582822)
09-23-2010 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Larni
09-23-2010 3:27 PM


Re: Vessels of Survival
Glad I'm agnostic!
Which means you're really a christian but you're just not certain of it?

This message is a reply to:
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