Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 46 of 657 (580246)
09-08-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
09-07-2010 10:52 PM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
jar writes:
You mean like I did Buz?
Where?
jar writes:
Remember the columns he found?
They are Roman Buz.
Evidence?
There was even a Roman city at Aqaba and a Roman road that was part of a highway system that extended down both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba.
No Roman city at Nuweiba Beach that I am aware of. No Roman reason for a lone column on a beach.
No Buldozers, blasting powder, and earthmovers to build a coastal highway through the mountainous terrain North and South of Nuweiba Beach, Jar. Who's more ignorant, Jar, apprised region savvy Wyatt audiences or Jar?
jar writes:
think part of the problem is that Wyatt and most of the audiences that watch his nonsense are totally ignorant of teh history of the area.
The supposed deserted area the Hebrews wandered through had been settled by folk for many centuries, civilizations like the Edomites, Egyptians, and later the Romans, Greeks and Muslims.
Perhaps you can apprise the alleged ignorant on the timeframe of each civilized occupation and the extent of wilderness occupation and culture for each other than the role of nomadic herdsmen.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 10:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Huntard, posted 09-08-2010 10:40 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 50 by jar, posted 09-08-2010 11:13 AM Buzsaw has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 47 of 657 (580247)
09-08-2010 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
09-08-2010 10:35 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Buzsaw writes:
No Buldozers, blasting powder, and earthmovers to build a coastal highway through the mountainous terrain North and South of Nuweiba Beach, Jar.
You are of the impression that the Romans had these machines?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 09-08-2010 10:35 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 48 of 657 (580249)
09-08-2010 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by bluescat48
09-08-2010 1:13 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Bluescat writes:
Have you ever looked at a map of Southwest Asia? To get to Arabia, crossing the Red Sea and its closest point not going over Sinai, is ~100 miles. Otherwise to get to Arabia they would have had to cross the "Promised Land" or crossed the other arm of the sea and nowhere in Exodus does it state that.
LOL, Bluescat. Both arms of the Red Sea were The Red Sea, so the Biblical Record does not designate, other than context, which arm the crossing took place. Context says they crossed into Midian which was in Arabia, clearly implying what is now known as The Gulf Of Aqaba.
The NT also designates Arabia as the location of Mt Sinai. Tradition miss-named the Sinai Pinensula and miss-located Mt Sinai, contrary to the Biblical record and the evidence first discovered/pioneered by Ron Wyatt.
Not only that, but the topography described in the Biblical text only matches Nuweiba Beach, in that it had to have been big enough for a large number of people and that it had to be enclosed by mountains and accessable by a river/creek vally or wadi.
According to the record text, the Egyptians had the Israelites entrapped so as a Red Sea/Aqaba crossing was the only possible escape route.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by bluescat48, posted 09-08-2010 1:13 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by frako, posted 09-08-2010 10:58 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 09-08-2010 11:20 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 90 by PaulK, posted 09-14-2010 2:17 AM Buzsaw has replied

frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 49 of 657 (580251)
09-08-2010 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Buzsaw
09-08-2010 10:51 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
and naturaly you can prove this by diving there and finding a huge pile of egyptian chariots, armor, and skeletons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 09-08-2010 10:51 AM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 657 (580253)
09-08-2010 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
09-08-2010 10:35 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Buz writes:
jar writes:
You mean like I did Buz?
Where?
Have you read this thread Buz?
Let's start with Message 25 and then Message 28 and then Message 36 and then again in Message 40. Those should do as starters.
Buz writes:
There was even a Roman city at Aqaba and a Roman road that was part of a highway system that extended down both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba.
No Roman city at Nuweiba Beach that I am aware of. No Roman reason for a lone column on a beach.
No Buldozers, blasting powder, and earthmovers to build a coastal highway through the mountainous terrain North and South of Nuweiba Beach, Jar. Who's more ignorant, Jar, apprised region savvy Wyatt audiences or Jar?
Good grief Buz. If the Romans could do anything at all, they could and did build roads. Everywhere. Ethiopia and Yemen were major sources for some spices and also gold.
Aqaba was a major port as well as a central distribution location.
For some basic information on Roman Roads east of the Jordan, start here.
also...
quote:
Aqaba has been an inhabited settlement since 4000 BC profiting from its strategic location at the junction of trading routes between Asia, Africa, and Europe. The early settlement was presumably Edomite in ancient times. It was a center of the Edomites, and then of the Arab Nabataeans, during the first century B.C. who populated the region extensively.
from Wiki.
You do realize that places Aqaba as a major city at the time of Adam don't you?
Buz writes:
jar writes:
think part of the problem is that Wyatt and most of the audiences that watch his nonsense are totally ignorant of the history of the area.
The supposed deserted area the Hebrews wandered through had been settled by folk for many centuries, civilizations like the Edomites, Egyptians, and later the Romans, Greeks and Muslims.
Perhaps you can apprise the alleged ignorant on the timeframe of each civilized occupation and the extent of wilderness occupation and culture for each other than the role of nomadic herdsmen.
I've been trying to do that here at EvC for many years, I'll admit it looks like without much luck.
The civilizations in the area go back even before the Hebrews were a people. Who did you think the Medians and Edomites and
And Buz, so far I have seen no evidence that there even is some significant Nuweiba Beach.
Maybe that is still in the evidence you plan on presenting.
The whole area was under Egyptian control at the time of the supposed Biblical Exodus. Since then, there were many Roman constructions in the area and there is NO reason to suppose that any columns, buildings or artifacts are related to the Biblical Exodus myth.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 09-08-2010 10:35 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 12:07 AM jar has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 51 of 657 (580256)
09-08-2010 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Buzsaw
09-08-2010 10:51 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
quote:
Context says they crossed into Midian which was in Arabia, clearly implying what is now known as The Gulf Of Aqaba.
The context says nothing of the sort. In fact it seems to place Mount Sinai OUTSIDE of Midian.
quote:
The NT also designates Arabia as the location of Mt Sinai. Tradition miss-named the Sinai Pinensula and miss-located Mt Sinai, contrary to the Biblical record and the evidence first discovered/pioneered by Ron Wyatt.
In NT times the designation "Arabia" included Sinai, as you know from previous discussion of the point.
Wikipedia states:
Arabia Petraea, also called Provincia Arabia or simply Arabia, was a frontier province of the Roman Empire beginning in the second century; it consisted of the former Nabataean kingdom in modern Jordan, southern modern Syria, the Sinai Peninsula and northwestern Saudi Arabia. Its capital was Petra. It was bordered on the north by Syria, on the west by Iudaea and Aegyptus.
If Ron Wyatt thought that "Arabia" excluded the Sinai peninsula then Ron Wyatt was ignorant and wrong.
quote:
Not only that, but the topography described in the Biblical text only matches Nuweiba Beach, in that it had to have been big enough for a large number of people and that it had to be enclosed by mountains and accessable by a river/creek vally or wadi.
Where does the Biblical description of the site mention mountains or "a river/creek valley or wadi" ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 09-08-2010 10:51 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 12:38 AM PaulK has replied

greyseal
Member (Idle past 3861 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 52 of 657 (580280)
09-08-2010 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
09-07-2010 8:55 AM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
Hi Buz,
buzsaw writes:
After over three millenniums, what lamb bones left on the ground would you expect to find? Why should pottery be found? left by a relative fast moving troop of people in flight. What should you expect to find from nomads constantly on the move?
i would like to have an answer to my question Message 26 which talks about evidence that will definitely have lasted thousands of years, but I think you really need to answer fraco at Message 29 where he has done some rather good back of the envelope calculations to estimate, for example, purely the number of goats that would have to be slaughtered.
Now I don't know about what you think about such things, but broken pottery, knives, bones, campfires, tools and more will be found even today from such an exodus. It is inevitable.
Unlike millions of years old fossils (which we also still find relatively intact), such pieces will not have decayed by anything near as much over a mere 3000 years or so. Even paper, in certain conditions, survives that long.
So please, whilst you're talking about "evidence" such as your hokey rock and doctored pictures of "golden calves" that are no such thing, ask yourself the simple question of where all the detritus from the jews went.
If they were fleeing, then they would drop lots of stuff and not pick it up - it would all stay there potentially forever. If they were not fleeing, they would stop, make camp and make a mess (which would remain, even if they cleaned up after themselves).
Either way, there would literally be mountains of evidence.
so where is it?
Whilst you talk about "disastrous" results, please realise what you're saying (that's the gist of my question).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 09-07-2010 8:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 53 of 657 (580555)
09-10-2010 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
09-08-2010 11:13 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
jar writes:
Buzsaw writes:
No Buldozers, blasting powder, and earthmovers to build a coastal highway through the mountainous terrain North and South of Nuweiba Beach, Jar. Who's more ignorant, Jar, apprised region savvy Wyatt audiences or Jar?
Good grief Buz. If the Romans could do anything at all, they could and did build roads. Everywhere. Ethiopia and Yemen were major sources for some spices and also gold.
Have a look, Jar, at the West Gulf Of Aqaba topography. And you think a coastal highway would or could have gone through that in ancient days?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 09-08-2010 11:13 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 09-10-2010 9:37 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 473 by MiguelG, posted 04-12-2011 2:05 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 54 of 657 (580558)
09-10-2010 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by PaulK
09-08-2010 11:20 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
PaulK writes:
If Ron Wyatt thought that "Arabia" excluded the Sinai peninsula then Ron Wyatt was ignorant and wrong.
Paul, two things:
1. The Bible does not refer to the Sinai Peninsula as the Sinai Peninsula. I believe it was considered the "Wilderness of Sin" or something like that.
2. A map of the land of the Midianites, shows it as the whole wilderness area East of What is now known as the Gulf of Aqaba (then, a wing of the Red Sea. )
It is my understanding that what later became known as part of Arabia was, in Moses's day, known as the land of Midian.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 09-08-2010 11:20 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Huntard, posted 09-10-2010 1:06 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2010 1:53 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 60 by bluescat48, posted 09-10-2010 1:29 PM Buzsaw has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 55 of 657 (580559)
09-10-2010 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
09-10-2010 12:38 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Yes. but Sinai is also a part of Arabia, so sources saying that the mountain was located "in Arabia", does not help your cause one bit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 12:38 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 9:16 PM Huntard has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 56 of 657 (580561)
09-10-2010 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
09-10-2010 12:38 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
quote:
1. The Bible does not refer to the Sinai Peninsula as the Sinai Peninsula. I believe it was considered the "Wilderness of Sin" or something like that.
Irrelevant. The point is that in NT times "Arabia" included Sinai and so when the NT places Mount Sinai in "Arabia" it does NOT exclude the traditional location. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply ignorant.
quote:
2. A map of the land of the Midianites, shows it as the whole wilderness area East of What is now known as the Gulf of Aqaba (then, a wing of the Red Sea. )
It is my understanding that what later became known as part of Arabia was, in Moses's day, known as the land of Midian.
So, since Exodus implies that Mount Sinai is not in Midian it looks that Wyatt is wrong.
(Note also that your source claims:
During the time of the Exodus, their territory apparently also included portions of the Sinai Peninsula.
)
I also note that you provide no evidence of any Biblical reference to mountains with a wadi or dry river providing a route through for the crossing site. May I take it that you concede that there is no such reference ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 12:38 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 09-10-2010 11:00 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 10:01 PM PaulK has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 657 (580611)
09-10-2010 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
09-10-2010 12:07 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Are you kidding Buz. Look at the topography of Italy or Greece. Have you ever heard of the Alps? What is in that picture that would present even a new challenge to the Romans?
Have you seen Petra? It was important because it was a major trading hub and it is in even more forbidding territory.
In fact the modern highway 5 follows much of the old Roman road.
AbE: I thought a few maps that shows the extent of the Roman Empire might help understanding that nothing along the Gulf of Aqaba presented a major challenge to the Romans in building roads.
The first shows the extent of the Roman Empire over several periods. As you can see, there are no mountains comparable to the Alps, the Apennines, the Caucuses or the Atlas mountains in the Arabian Peninsula.
The second shows the developed areas in green between about 300BCE and 700CE.
Edited by jar, : add a couple maps.
Edited by jar, : can't even spal AbE: currkly

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 12:07 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 10:07 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 657 (580620)
09-10-2010 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
09-10-2010 1:53 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Just a side-note on Buz's source, The New World Encyclopedia.
quote:
Our Approach and Worldview
This project transcends the metaphysical assumptions of both the Enlightenment and Modern Encyclopedias.
The originator of this project is Sun Myung Moon. NWE editors are guided by scholarly texts expressing the theological and philosophical systematization of his life and teachings, the universal values and ideals inherent in the great religions, philosophies, and teachings of conscience, and the core principles of the Universal Peace Federation.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2010 1:53 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2010 11:04 AM jar has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 59 of 657 (580622)
09-10-2010 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
09-10-2010 11:00 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Jar, I know better than to trust any source that Buz cites. He doesn't do quality control. As in all things he only cares that it says what he wants (when he even cares about that much).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 09-10-2010 11:00 AM jar has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 60 of 657 (580650)
09-10-2010 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
09-10-2010 12:38 AM


Re: Arabia/Midian Evidence
Today, the former territory of Midian is located in western Saudi Arabia, southern Jordan, southern Israel, and the Egyptian Sinai peninsula.
This is the last part of your reference (emphasis mine).
When the Israelites reached Sinai, they were in Midian.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 12:38 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Buzsaw, posted 09-10-2010 9:29 PM bluescat48 has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024