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Author Topic:   Obama supports Ground Zero mosque. Religious freedom or is he being too PC?
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 361 of 406 (580068)
09-07-2010 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by onifre
09-07-2010 11:07 AM


onifre responds to me:
quote:
If it doesn't have anything to do with me or what I do, then how can I be asked how I determine who goes away unhappy?
Because as a member of society, you have a part to play in how society determines things. But surely you can understand that governmental functioning is not the same as a stand-up performance and thus, different standards of behaviour are expected, yes? Let us stop playing dumb, shall we?
quote:
In ANY other situation other than what I can control, (1) I don't care, it's off topic and irrelevant, but (2) I don't determine things for other situations.
Then why are you bothering to say anything at all in this thread? You don't control Park51, the people who are protesting, the governments of the city of New York, the state of New York, or the country of the United States, or the various builders, planners, and workmen involved in the project. Since you have absolutely no control and thus, "you don't care," why are you bothering to speak about it?
Ah, that's because you do care.
Shall we stop playing dumb.
quote:
How can I answer your question of who goes away unhappy in reference to the mosque?
By explaining your philosophy regarding freedom of religion, which isn't a one-night stand in Brooklyn.
quote:
quote:
Why does something that happens to everybody mean that everybody has to lose something?
It doesn't.
That isn't what you said before. You said, "If it's fair, everyone will be sad at some point." Really? Why? Why does everybody have to be sad in order for it to be fair?
quote:
quote:
Why can't the "fair" thing be that we follow what is right rather than try to maintain some sort of faux "equality"?
Sure, why not?
You tell me. You're the one saying that everybody is going to be sad.
quote:
In the case with Comedy Central, and ONLY in this specific case, someone got shit on, namely, Christians. Muslims were considered before showing the image, and, they decided not to show the image in that one particular episode that DID show Jesus shitting on Bush and the flag.
What makes you think they didn't consider Christians before showing that episode?
quote:
That is not fair. In that case, and in this specific case only, the right thing to do IMO was to show both, or shown none.
Now, here's the big part: Why? Can you explain your reasonings that brought you to this conclusion? Is there some legal framework you're drawing from? Use your words, onifre. I know why I came to that conclusion, but I don't know why you did because you keep refusing to elucidate your reasonings despite repeated requests for you to do so.
quote:
Dude, pick a fucking subject and stick to it. I thought you were going on about Comedy Central, now this question seems to be in reference to the mosque.
(*chuckle*)
This from the person who brought up "censored on TV" in the first place.
If you cannot understand how your own example relates to the matter at hand, then why did you bring it up?
quote:
Na, I'm satisfied saying we're talking about the same people.
Of course...you haven't done your homework, have no idea who you're talking about, and now that you've been called out on it, you're going to pretend that it doesn't matter.
quote:
Me too, and it's the same as you.
So who are they? I am not here to do your homework for you, especially since you're the one who brought it up.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by onifre, posted 09-07-2010 11:07 AM onifre has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 362 of 406 (580070)
09-07-2010 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by AZPaul3
09-07-2010 1:01 PM


Re: But the point is
AZPaul3 writes:
Oh, Huntard, there are some very powerful historical reasons for Islam's distaste of these things. In its infancy Islam was tolerant of pagans and polytheism. Idols were not for them since this was too much like praying to man-made stone things in place of God, but they let the pagans do their thing.
Then Muhammad become successful with is message.
It begins with Muhammad's fleeing from Mecca to Medina when the Idol Merchants started killing all his followers. They controlled Mecca at that time and saw Muhammad's teachings (monotheist) as cutting into their "trade." They went after Muhammad and the moslims with a vengeance. The ensuing wars were, well, quite bloody, like all wars. Eventually, Muhammad conquered Mecca where he destroyed the idols, caricatures and images in the Kabaal.
So, Islam's view of such idols as haraam stems from a bloody history of suppression as well as folding quite nicely into their monotheistic beliefs.
Yes, those idols. Not images of Mohammad. Also, worshipping an idol, and drawing a picture are two different things entirely.
It is not a "just because I want it to be..." kind of thing.
Still looks like it from here.
But the western mind has little appreciation for such foreign history and its effects on culture.
I appreciate that they don't like idol worshippers, and the idols they worship, I don't understand them getting upset over someone drawing a picture.
My little screed here can hardly do justice to the depth of emotion. Kinda like saying jews were killed by Nazis. There is much too much more to this then a mere "war". Sorry.
Yes, from idol worshippers and their idols not by someone drawing a picture.
Sorry, I still see someone drawing a picture as something completely different than worshipping a pagan idol and killing Muslims. Also, they don;t seem to upset about depictions of pagan gods, even though it was actually people depicting pagan gods that killed them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by AZPaul3, posted 09-07-2010 1:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by AZPaul3, posted 09-08-2010 12:54 AM Huntard has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 363 of 406 (580071)
09-07-2010 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by onifre
09-07-2010 11:10 AM


onifre responds to me:
quote:
Who the fuck was talking to you and why the fuck would you think I was posting that in reference to our conversation?
If you didn't want a response made to your post that you put in a public forum that invites all and sundry to respond, perhaps that wasn't the best place for you to make your statement.
Especially when it shows you using the same faulty logic you've been called out on: Pointing at vague, unnamed, undefined people as some sort of threat.
Who are the specific people you are referring to?
quote:
Do you just need attention?
You tell me. You're the one saying that if you don't have control, you don't care. Well, you certainly don't have any control over the community center in New York, so why are you talking about it here?
Do you just need attention?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by onifre, posted 09-07-2010 11:10 AM onifre has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 364 of 406 (580072)
09-07-2010 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Coyote
09-07-2010 1:28 PM


Coyote writes:
quote:
Let me repeat: Sensitivity/diversity is a two-way street.
So why do you only complain when Muslims do it? Where is your outrage when Christians do it?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Coyote, posted 09-07-2010 1:28 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Coyote, posted 09-07-2010 2:19 PM Rrhain has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 365 of 406 (580073)
09-07-2010 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Rrhain
09-07-2010 2:14 PM


quote:
Let me repeat: Sensitivity/diversity is a two-way street.
So why do you only complain when Muslims do it? Where is your outrage when Christians do it?
I do. But that would be off topic on this thread.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Rrhain, posted 09-07-2010 2:14 PM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Adminnemooseus, posted 09-07-2010 3:45 PM Coyote has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 366 of 406 (580077)
09-07-2010 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Coyote
09-07-2010 1:28 PM


Let me repeat: Sensitivity/diversity is a two-way street.
No, it's not. Just like morality is not a two-way street: two wrongs don't make a right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Coyote, posted 09-07-2010 1:28 PM Coyote has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 367 of 406 (580081)
09-07-2010 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Rahvin
09-07-2010 12:14 PM


Re: Koran burning in Fl
Rahvin writes:
The "Dove World Outreach Church" plans to reach out to the world on 9/11/10 by holding a good old-fashioned book-burning, and their target is specifically the Koran.
Clearly, they are announcing to the world that Christianity is a religion of hatred, bigotry and book burning.
Yes, I agree that free speech gives them the constitutional right to do this. But it doesn't give them the moral right.
I am wondering when Christianity decided to abandon the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Rahvin, posted 09-07-2010 12:14 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by cavediver, posted 09-07-2010 3:37 PM nwr has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 368 of 406 (580084)
09-07-2010 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by nwr
09-07-2010 3:13 PM


Re: Koran burning in Fl
I am wondering when Christianity decided to abandon the teachings of Jesus.
Around the time Paul got involved?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by nwr, posted 09-07-2010 3:13 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by nwr, posted 09-07-2010 3:42 PM cavediver has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 369 of 406 (580085)
09-07-2010 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by cavediver
09-07-2010 3:37 PM


Re: Koran burning in Fl
nwr writes:
I am wondering when Christianity decided to abandon the teachings of Jesus.
cavediver writes:
Around the time Paul got involved?
Too true.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by cavediver, posted 09-07-2010 3:37 PM cavediver has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 370 of 406 (580086)
09-07-2010 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Coyote
09-07-2010 2:19 PM


Call for summary messages tied directly to the topic core theme
But that would be off topic on this thread.
Disclaimer: I am not a disinterested party in this topic. I (Minnemooseus) had a significant conflict with Rrhain not that far upthread.
That said, I do think things have strayed too far from the topic core theme, which is the legal considerations and the moral (for offhand lack of a better term) propriety of the so called "ground zero mosque". I think we are having major conflicts between members who are in near if not absolute agreement concerning that core theme - I don't think Minnemooseus, Rrhain, or Omnifre have anything against it. I think this is a solid indicator that the topic has gone off the rails.
So, I'm calling for closing summary messages - Only one per member.
I think I'll close this topic down tomorrow, unless another admin does it first. The other related subthemes need to find a better home elsewhere, be it an existing or a new topic.
Adminnemooseus

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Report a problem etc. type topics:
Report discussion problems here: No.2
Thread Reopen Requests 2
Topic Proposal Issues
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines
Admin writes:
It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.
There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.
Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Message 150

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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 371 of 406 (580088)
09-07-2010 4:50 PM


Summary
I am not a fan of Islam. Likewise, I am not a fan of fundamentalist Christianity.
I am a fan of the first amendment, and it is clear that they have the right to build their center.
The campaign against the center is mostly political theater, orchestrated by the crazies.

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Omnivorous, posted 09-07-2010 6:39 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 372 of 406 (580102)
09-07-2010 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by nwr
09-07-2010 4:50 PM


Re: Summary
I am not a fan of religion, particularly the desert-baked sons of Abraham: Jews, Christians, Muslims.
It pains me to see that the question, "Obama supports Ground Zero mosque. Religious freedom or is he being too PC?" even merits discussion: Is a president being too PC when he keeps his oath to uphold the Constitution? As though we'd all prefer a president who picked and chose his Articles and Amendments. We had one of those; he didn't work out well.
I'm relieved that the preponderant view seems to be that Obama acted correctly to defend religious liberties.
As a vet, I'm particularly saddened by the folks in Florida. As Gen. Petraeus has suggested, they are going to cause needless deaths. Then they will take to the streets and cameras, waving their bloody hands, further inflaming both sides.
When you fight fire with fire, everything burns.

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by nwr, posted 09-07-2010 4:50 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 373 of 406 (580107)
09-07-2010 7:33 PM


Somebody elses summary (way better than I could dream of doing)
From via Page not found | ScienceBlogs
quote:
From Leon Wieseltier, writing on the Islamic center in lower Manhattan:
quote:
I have no quarrel with the construction of Cordoba House, but not because Islam is a religion of peace. It is not. Like Christianity and like Judaism, Islam is a religion of peace and a religion of war. All the religions have all the tendencies within them, and in varying historical circumstances varying beliefs and practices have come to the fore. It is absurd to describe the perpetrators of September 11 as "murderers calling themselves Muslims," as Karen Hughes recently did. They did not call themselves Muslims. They were Muslims. America was not attacked by Islam, but it was also not attacked by Jainism. Mohammed Atta and his band (as well as the growing number of "homegrown" Islamist killers and plotters) represent a real and burgeoning development within Islam, an actualization of one of Islam's possibilities, an indigenous transnational movement of apocalyptic violence that has brought misery to Muslim societies, and to us. It is not Islamophobic to say so. Quite the contrary: it is to side with Muslims who are struggling against the same poison as we are. Apologetic definitions of Islam will not avail anybody in this struggle.

More at my source, more at the sources source.
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Add last sentence.

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 374 of 406 (580173)
09-08-2010 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by Huntard
09-07-2010 2:08 PM


Re: But the point is
Yes, those idols. Not images of Mohammad.
Deliberately obtuse?
No, Huntard, not those kinds of idols. Muslims couldn't care less what pictures, statues, figurines or cartoons anyone wants to prey to just as long as they are not of Muhammad or God.
And where the hell are the muslims? Why is this being left to some atheist to explain? Badly.
Also, worshipping an idol, and drawing a picture are two different things entirely.
To the western mind this is so, but the rest of the world does not revolve around Europe and the USA.
Even though I try to help avoid misunderstandings based on cultural ignorance I do not have the patience to preach on something I do not believe in.
Just know that images (drawn, carved, molded, stamped, whatever) of Muhammad or God are hateful images in the extreme to a moslim.
Accept that or not as you wish. If you ever do feel a curiosity as to the "why" then the history is out there ready for you to learn.
[abe] Sorry, Moose. I did not see your closing statement. I beg the forgiveness of the mighty ones.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Huntard, posted 09-07-2010 2:08 PM Huntard has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 375 of 406 (580199)
09-08-2010 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by hooah212002
09-07-2010 8:45 AM


Re: Listen
"hooah212002" writes:
Not that I care right now to get into a discussion about what the bible means, but I am pretty sure jesus did not come to change the law of the OT. But you see, anyone can interpret the words of the bible however they want and there is no way YOU can tell me I am wrong just because it's not what you want to hear.
Not that you care? You are the one telling us what you think the bible means quote mining the entire bible, and taking things out of context.
Completion of the law was to change it. And things did change.
Yes you are right, anyone can use anything for justification for doing the WRONG thing. That doesn't make the bible bad, or any book bad, that makes people bad.
What pisses me off is when people such as yourself, who come across as being smart, confuse those thoughts.
I don't blame the Koran, like those idiots in Florida, I blame people.
*Edit*
My summary:
I agree with nwr. Even though I believe in Jesus, I am not fan of religion. Religion pisses me off. To me, the first amendment is greater than whether it is ethically right or not to build a Mosque next to ground zero.
Given the track record of the terrorists, we have to question things they do. They used a Mosque in Brooklyn to harbor the guy who first tried to blow up the towers. They hide in Mosques. It's only natural that we would look there to see if they were harboring any.
Given the track record of many religious leaders, of all religions, I think that religious organizations should not be so "exempt" from being investigated. The FBI could not at the time of the first tower bombing investigate Al-Farooq Mosque in Brooklyn, because of their "religious status".
Religion is just man, it's not God.
Oh, and Rrhain, I don't know where you got the idea that Fox was funding the Mosque, I have not found anything online that says that. All I found was that the funding was sketchy, and they were even offered money from known terrorist leaders(or supporters of terrorism).
I understand that this doesn't make them a terrorist, but it does put up a flag, and give probably cause.
You managed to 100% mis-represent me in your raging quote mining rants. All I can say is you are completely wrong about me, and that you should probably take a print out of the conversation and see a psychiatrist.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by hooah212002, posted 09-07-2010 8:45 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by frako, posted 09-08-2010 7:33 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 377 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-08-2010 12:20 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 378 by Omnivorous, posted 09-08-2010 1:32 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 380 by jar, posted 09-08-2010 3:09 PM riVeRraT has not replied

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