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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 16 of 657 (579905)
09-06-2010 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Buzsaw
09-06-2010 2:40 PM


Re: Bump for Buz
Jar, unlike you, I don't do computer 24/7. I'm a very busy sole proprietor of a business involving some travel, do church stuff, garden and some ot other activities. I do computer, usually on the quick and off to other projects.
Just because I don't get to responses as soon as you think I should doesn't mean that I'm running off. Then, of course when evidence is aired, you simply waive it off as if none had been aired, so I don't see a lot of reason to even respond to some of what you're demanding.
You make a very good point, Buz.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2010 2:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 17 of 657 (579913)
09-06-2010 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Buzsaw
09-06-2010 2:40 PM


Re: Bump for Buz
No problem Buz, after all we have been waiting over a half decade for you to present some evidence, a few years more shouldn't make much difference.
If you feel though that you present evidence and it just gets waved off then perhaps you can provide us a link to an example. I will be glad to address in far greater detail why I consider some specific piece of evidence as insufficient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2010 2:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 18 of 657 (579915)
09-06-2010 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Hyroglyphx
09-06-2010 2:56 PM


Re: Bump for Buz
Have you seen Buz present any evidence?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-06-2010 2:56 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 19 of 657 (580008)
09-07-2010 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by frako
09-05-2010 4:24 PM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
lfrako writes:
im guessing 600 000 isrealites traveling trough the deserd would leave some trace, a row of pottery, lamb bones, stories of other kinggdoms having seen a whole mass of ppl lost and wandering trough the desert whitout a map and to proud to ask for directions. nothing simmilar anywhere
im also guessing sinc the egyptians where very burocratict that somwhre on an old parchemnt someonoe would find somthing simmilar to this: after the 600 000 isrealites left there is a large strawless brick shortage in eypt and the sorrounding lands prices for bricks whit straws have gone way up more taxsation is needed to build the nexst temple.
Hi Fraco. Welcome to EvC. After over three millenniums, what lamb bones left on the ground would you expect to find? Why should pottery be found? left by a relative fast moving troop of people in flight. What should you expect to find from nomads constantly on the move?
The Egyptians had a vested interest in admitting nothing of the Exodus and the disastrous results which would expose their vulnerability to their enemies.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Huntard, posted 09-07-2010 9:06 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 21 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 9:08 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 22 by frako, posted 09-07-2010 9:08 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 23 by hooah212002, posted 09-07-2010 9:12 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 33 by frako, posted 09-07-2010 2:30 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 52 by greyseal, posted 09-08-2010 12:49 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 20 of 657 (580012)
09-07-2010 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
09-07-2010 8:55 AM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
Buzsaw writes:
Hi Fraco. Welcome to EvC. After over three millenniums, what lamb bones left on the ground would you expect to find? Why should pottery be found? left by a relative fast moving troop of people in flight. What should you expect to find from nomads constantly on the move?
From 1 to 2 million people on the move? A lot of evidence, that's what I'd expect.
The Egyptians had a vested interest in admitting nothing of the Exodus and the disastrous results which would expose their vulnerability to their enemies.
Which is exactly why the exodus isn't likely to have taken place, remember, they lost their leader and a huge part of their army, not to mention would have an enormous problem with so many people walking out on them production wise. If there were any truth in this, Egypt's enemies would have immediately invaded and taken over. Since this didn;t happen, we can be failry sure the exodus didn't happen as described.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 09-07-2010 8:55 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Buzsaw, posted 01-04-2011 10:18 AM Huntard has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 657 (580013)
09-07-2010 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
09-07-2010 8:55 AM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
Buz writes:
The Egyptians had a vested interest in admitting nothing of the Exodus and the disastrous results which would expose their vulnerability to their enemies.
Get serious Buz. Losing a Pharaoh and a whole army can not go unnoticed. They would have had to replace all the weapons, the chariots, the horses, the armor, the food stuff, the wagons, ...
Things like that do not go unnoticed nor can they be kept secret.
There would have been a regime change, new commanders, new priests, merchants from all over the world lined up to fill the needs.
Buz writes:
Hi Fraco. Welcome to EvC. After over three millenniums, what lamb bones left on the ground would you expect to find? Why should pottery be found? left by a relative fast moving troop of people in flight. What should you expect to find from nomads constantly on the move?
Fast moving? Get serious Buz. If the fable was true they simply could not have moved fast.
Did they build fires? If so then they would leave fire pits. Did they not stay in one place for decades? How exactly do you encamp the numbers claimed in the fable in one place for decades without leaving traces?
This thread is a place for you to finally present some evidence. You have admitted that you have none regarding the chariot wheels, now do you have any other evidence that might support the Biblical Exodus?
If so, here is you chance. Please present it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 09-07-2010 8:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 22 of 657 (580014)
09-07-2010 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
09-07-2010 8:55 AM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
well in that case they could have not mentiond the battle where Ramses II lost a battle against Hittites though true they turned it around and said the gods favored ramses by saving him from being killed they could have done smothing simmilar to the isrealites like the farao threw them out cause they where not worthy to live in egipt.
well i guess they dont find any other remanis of any other nomadic tribes whit way less members than 600 000.
http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/ois5.pdf oo wait they do
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 23 of 657 (580015)
09-07-2010 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
09-07-2010 8:55 AM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
Buz, your entire tenure here (at least what I've seen since you have been a member far longer than myself) has been replete with claims of evidence for things such as the exodus. Now, you keep making excuses why there isn't any evidence.

Your god believes in Unicorns

This message is a reply to:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 24 of 657 (580017)
09-07-2010 9:46 AM


Calculations. Yay!
Here are some calculations I did considering the sheer amount of people taking part in the exodus, and the impossibility of it all (posted to an earlier thread considering evidence for the historical accuracy of the bible):
quote:
One more thing I'd like to discuss.
What about the sheer amount of people involved. They number in the millions (anyone got a more or less accurate estimate?)
I did some calculations, If we allow each person a 50 cm by 50 cm square to move in (which I think is way too small, but meh). And given that they would walk in columns of 100 people wide (they really couldn't have done more then that with all the canyons). At 5,000,000 people, this would make it 50 metres wide, by 25 Km long! An average walking speed is about 3-4 Km/hour, this would mean that when the first ones stopped to make up camp, it would take the last people to arive at this camp at least 6 hours to reach the site. At which time the first ones would have to be on the move again (remember, they are being pursued).
Even at half those people (2,500,000) it would still be 12.5 Km long. That's still 4 hours before the last ones arive.
That's just undoable, man.
I never got a reaction from Buz on this.
{ABE}: How did I arrive at those numbers of people? Well, there were 600,000 men "able to fight", if I recall correctly. Take them and their wives, that makes 1.2 million. Add their parents and that would make 2.4 million. If the men and women all had 2 children (very little for that time), that would make 3.6 million. at four children (far more reasonable) that would make 4.8 million. That's how I arrived at the 5 million number. But again, even at half that number, which I'm sure is way too little, it's still undoable.
Edited by Huntard, : Added {ABE} bit

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 657 (580018)
09-07-2010 10:04 AM


Well, since no one seems to want to present any evidence, I'll try to address some of the evidence presented online.
There is a claim that the altar of the golden calf was found, and that it also showed an Egyptian influence. This is the image used to support that assertion.
BUT...
that is simply an example of misrepresentation and in fact, doctoring the data.
Notice how the area around that image is all dark? That is a technique called burning, used long before there was any digital image technology. It simply wipes out any data that was in the burn area.
Here is the actual stone that the above image was taken from.
As can be seen in the original, the burned image used as evidence of a man holding up some cow is not that at all. In reality, the rock is covered with a montage of pictures, many of human hunting and male phallic symbols, various antelope, camels, dogs or wolves and geometric designs.
There is nothing to suggest that it was ever an "altar" or that it has anything to do with calves, in fact there is not a single calf depicted on the whole face of the rock. The images themselves are common to much of the rock art found all around the Mediterranean from North Africa to Spain.
From other sites around the Mediterranean.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 09-07-2010 10:36 PM jar has replied

greyseal
Member (Idle past 3862 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 26 of 657 (580019)
09-07-2010 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Huntard
09-07-2010 9:46 AM


Re: Calculations. Yay!
those are some pretty scary numbers. I remember reading that in actual fact, if the numbers spoken of were to have realistically travelled according to what was possible back then over known terrain in known groups, then for the forty odd years they supposedly camped out in the desert, not once would the entire procession be able to stop in one place - as you say, by the time night falls and the guys at the front stop and sleep for eight hours, the guys at the back are only just arriving at a campsite...which is now vacated by the guys at the front.
So out in this desert, where they were being relentlessly persued by an army at a snails pace which allowed them apparently decades-worth of potty breaks, if they actually all stopped at once it would be a semi-permanent dwelling-mass as large as a whole country/state of the USA which would have left an indelible mark on the countryside. In short, we'd be picking up middens, cartwheels, firepits, pottery, bones, blankets, skeletons, lost socks, false eyes, wooden legs and all the other detritus that humanity drags around with itself. These sites would be there for centuries, millenia even.
So...where are they?
quite apart from the fleeing jews, you've got three things happening:
1) egypt has been decimated by about a decade of famine and pestilence, culminating in the death of some large part of the population (anything up to let's say 1/4 of the population under 18)
2) egypt just lost faraoh and his armies
3) and on top of that, egypt just lost it's captive workforce, the guys responsible for planting crops, repairing buildings, emptying toilets, manual labour and all the dirty jobs that a civilization like egypt requires to function on a day-to-day basis
so, you've decimated the (non-jew) population. you've destroyed her armies and her ruler and gelded the workforce - AFTER a decade of let's say "biological warfare".
so, what do you think happens to a country with no workforce, no soldiers, no leaders and no telephone sanitizers?
that's right - total collapse. civil war, bloodshed, extinction.
So, er, where's this period of failure where the egypt we know and love ceased to be for, oh, let's say 300 years at least, if not for good?

This message is a reply to:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 27 of 657 (580020)
09-07-2010 10:07 AM


I'll jump into this thread when I find the time as I think it is a topic that comes out fairly often and I think it's time we discuss it at length

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 657 (580021)
09-07-2010 10:16 AM


Another claim made is that the actual rock that was struck to produce water was found.
Here is some of the photographic "evidence" presented.
And here are similar rocks from around the world.
We can even look at the supposed Altar of the Golden Calf and see the same processes at work, split rocks and wind rounded edges.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 09-07-2010 9:34 PM jar has replied

frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 29 of 657 (580024)
09-07-2010 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Huntard
09-07-2010 9:46 AM


Re: Calculations. Yay!
the lowest estimates possible is 600 000 people if you read the word unit not as a Military unit but as family and evan if you half that do to
exaggeration u get 300 000 people. xserksies had at moste 200 000 men at termopolie and after he lost his ships he lost the means to feed and supply his army who can feed 300 000 people in the dessert on the run for 40 years.
if 15 peple eat a lamb a day equals to 20000 lambs a day in 15 days 300 000 lambs in a year 6 000 000 000 lambs in 40 years 2400 000 000 000 lambs lets not talk about bread a kilo of flouer for a loaf of bread for 4 people a day, and im guessing that evry oasis they would come across would be drank dry when they left.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 30 of 657 (580032)
09-07-2010 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Huntard
09-07-2010 9:46 AM


Links Please
quote:
I never got a reaction from Buz on this.
1. It is considerate to provide a link to msgs referenced in other threads, even if they are your own. Message 109 This allows readers to view the post in context.
2. The message in the other thread was a general reply, not a direct reply to Buz.
Participants, since this thread is not a continuation thread, please concentrate on the position presented in this thread and not drag in unanswered posts from other threads.
As I understand the OP, this thread is for Buz or others who believe the Exodus is an actual historical event to provide evidence that supports their position should they choose to participate. It isn't about Buz answering any unanswered issues from other threads concerning the Exodus.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.
Thank you
AdminPD Purple

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