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Author Topic:   Obama supports Ground Zero mosque. Religious freedom or is he being too PC?
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 316 of 406 (579299)
09-04-2010 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by riVeRraT
09-02-2010 11:57 PM


riVeRraT writes:
quote:
If someone said you were carrying something, wouldn't you expect to be searched?
No. "Someone said" is hardly grounds for search.
quote:
Your neighbor can report you to social services, and you bet your ass you would be under a full investigation, whether you like it or not.
Hardly. Does the phrase "probable cause" mean anything to you?
Exactly what do you think is happening?
Be specific.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by riVeRraT, posted 09-02-2010 11:57 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by riVeRraT, posted 09-07-2010 7:12 AM Rrhain has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 317 of 406 (579301)
09-04-2010 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by riVeRraT
09-03-2010 10:09 AM


riVeRraT writes:
quote:
I guess you missed the part of the thread where I said I support the building of the Mosque.
What does that have to do with anything? You also want Muslims under investigation. That's the problem.
quote:
We are not talking about him
Yes, we are. You seem to want investigations, and we have an actual person who is part of a tradition that here in the United States has a long history of violent behaviour...in fact, is responsible for the biggest terrorist attack the country had ever seen not to mention the most common source for all terrorist attacks...and you "have no idea who he is."
In other words, you only seem to get upset with regard to Muslims, not Christians.
quote:
I have not seen him in the news, and there seems to be no apparent problem in my little world.
You do realize that those two things have nothing to do with each other, yes? Just because the news isn't covering it (and by the way, it is...the fact that you aren't paying attention is not evidence that it isn't being covered. I don't live in New York. Where do you think I learned about him?) doesn't mean it doesn't affect your little world.
But let's go with it. This center also doesn't affect your little world, but you seem to want people investigated.
quote:
I have not called him anything. I have no fucking clue who he is, or what he is about.
But you made a general statement. Keller matches precisely the person you're complaining about. Ergo, you're calling him a terrorist.
Oh, I see...it only counts when you fling your accusations at Muslims. Now that you've heard about a Christian, you're backpedaling furiously. Rather than living up to the courage of your convictions and saying this guy really needs to be kept under constant watch by the FBI, you're whining that we're somehow changing the topic.
quote:
Great, I guess no one should ever be investigated ever, for any reason. We really need to get rid of our investigators.
Right. That's the logical conclusion. If "someone said" is a lousy idea for governmental intrusion, then we should refuse to do anything at all.
Does the phrase "probable cause" mean anything to you? Just what exactly do you think is happening?
Be specific.
quote:
No one is accusing me of anything.
I am. I am accusing you of being a terrorist. You're a white, Christian male. You fit the profile. Surely you have no problem with being investigated, right?
quote:
Make a valid comparison please.
Would you know one if it bit you?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2010 10:09 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by riVeRraT, posted 09-07-2010 7:17 AM Rrhain has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 318 of 406 (579302)
09-04-2010 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Coyote
09-03-2010 11:31 AM


Coyote writes:
quote:
Who is the enemy? This guy, for one
Huh? Australia? Dutch?
Why are you ignoring the Christians in the US who are calling for the deaths of their fellow citizens? They just went to court in Kansas to be able to keep it up.
And won.
Where is your outrage?
Why aren't you clamoring for the government to come down on the likes of Falwell and Robertson who get to have television programs where they pray for the deaths of people?
Do you know who Wiley Drake is?
Why is it you only seem to care when it's a Muslim in a foreign country doing it?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Coyote, posted 09-03-2010 11:31 AM Coyote has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 319 of 406 (579304)
09-04-2010 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by riVeRraT
09-02-2010 11:28 PM


Re: Opening date of the Mosque
Which means absolutely nothing.
Actually, it does mean something. It means that the FBI has checked them out, that the State Department under Bush has checked them out, and that the State Department under Obama has checked them out.
It is a terrorists job to hide in plain sight.
So, are you, or are you not, a secret Muslim terrorist? Of course, you appear not to be, but it is your job to hide in plain sight, and you haven't been checked out by the FBI and two successive State Departments.
WTF is the problem? If they are clean, they have nothing to worry about.
You seem to be implying that you said that they should be checked out further and I demurred. This is not the case.
If Homeland Security think them worth looking over one more time, then let them do so.
People get investigated all the dam time, over stupid shit. there obviously is a stir, and it should be governments job to calm the people down. Make sure, this way there can be no " I told you so"
Two successive governments have apparently investigated the question, and yet people are not calm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by riVeRraT, posted 09-02-2010 11:28 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by riVeRraT, posted 09-07-2010 7:34 AM Dr Adequate has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 320 of 406 (579330)
09-04-2010 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Hyroglyphx
08-15-2010 8:47 AM


It seems to me that the people getting the most pissed off are people who have no idea what a "go bag" is and live in the least likely places to need to have one.
I also think it is funny that lots and lots of people who have a low opinion of New Yorkers and believe New York City to be filled with horrible atheist depraved fornicating criminals suddenly think that the WTC site is "sacred".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-15-2010 8:47 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 321 of 406 (579333)
09-04-2010 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Apothecus
08-15-2010 9:07 AM


To clarify; this building will be a mosque in the same way that a YMCA is a church.
It is a community center that will also have a place for worship. Mostly, it will be about things like basketball and after school programs and daycare, just like a YMCA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Apothecus, posted 08-15-2010 9:07 AM Apothecus has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 322 of 406 (579337)
09-04-2010 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Huntard
08-22-2010 2:37 PM


They aren't pussies.
They are cowards, and not at all powerful like pussies are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Huntard, posted 08-22-2010 2:37 PM Huntard has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 323 of 406 (579375)
09-04-2010 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by Huntard
09-03-2010 5:31 AM


Re: But the point is
"Being offensive" is, in my oppinion, such a poor excuse for not doing something. Something is bound to be offensive to someone, should we just not do anything that could potentially be found offesive to somone? Or is the only thing that matters here how big the group of people is that get offended? If so, then where do we draw the line? 100 people? 500? 1000? When should we not do something that could be said to be offensive to others?
Would you deliberately do something hateful, spiteful and offensive to your Mother? Your best friend?
Don't get into hyperbole. We're not talking about giving inadvertent offense, which is too easy to do these days in a PC climate. Not even a periodic joke or one of Oni's hilariously offensive schticks would count.
We're talking about taking an unnecessary action to deliberately be offensive out of pure malice. Doesn't matter if the target is one or a million.
Hang a big "NIGGER!" sign on your house. Post a large Nazi flag across the street from the Synagogue. Hang a cartoon caricature of Muhammad out your window.
You certainly have the right to do these things, but are you really one of the crazy zealots hateful enough to do these things?
Other than a demented sociopath, why would anyone go out of their way to do such a thing or even contemplate such a thing in an open public forum?
This has nothing to do with being PC. It has to do with pure unadulterated hate. Yet, this is exactly what Taz is contemplating and you are defending. Why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Huntard, posted 09-03-2010 5:31 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by onifre, posted 09-04-2010 11:19 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 339 by Huntard, posted 09-07-2010 7:41 AM AZPaul3 has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 324 of 406 (579499)
09-04-2010 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Rrhain
09-01-2010 10:41 PM


Neither of these answer the question. How do you determine who goes away without what they want?
Yes they do answer your question. You're asking me how I determine who goes away without what they want, well I answered you.
quote:
Message 229
On stage, I don't make a decision to exclude anyone. I attack everyone equally.
Why does "fair" mean everybody has to lose something?
Because it happens to "everybody." Unfair would be if it happened to only one single group continuously.
I'll remember that when you say, "shut the fuck up," what you really mean is to give it to you with both barrels.
The thread is still open, and there are unanswered posts, so bring your two barrels.
In other words, you don't know because you haven't done your homework. Just as I said.
No, you mentioned them in your post and I explained to you that we're talking about the same people.
Here's what you said:
Rrhain writes:
Comedy Central had no problem standing up to Christian groups who were not happy with that way South Park handled Christianity, but they suddenly turn into quivering lumps of Jell-O when faced with threats from some Muslims.
Those "some Muslims" that threatened Comedy Central, that YOU mention, are the people I'm talking about too.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Rrhain, posted 09-01-2010 10:41 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Rrhain, posted 09-05-2010 3:50 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 325 of 406 (579510)
09-04-2010 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Nij
09-03-2010 6:02 AM


Re: But the point is
Which Muslims would those be, then?
Would you consider reciting antisemitic messages on Egyptian TV offensive?
Btw, this comes on the same Egyptian TV that has Egyptian Disney on another channel.
there is no good reason to hang up a sign of Muhammed or saying "NIGGER!".
There are many good reasons; to show someone an artist rendition, to hang it at a museum, etc. And someone could be saying a joke that involves the word nigger in it. It could be hilarious, even when done by a white person.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Nij, posted 09-03-2010 6:02 AM Nij has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Rrhain, posted 09-05-2010 3:52 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 326 of 406 (579523)
09-04-2010 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by AZPaul3
09-04-2010 11:54 AM


Re: But the point is
Would you deliberately do something hateful, spiteful and offensive to your Mother? Your best friend?
I do material all the time that my Catholic mother would find offensive, hateful in a broad sense, and certainly spiteful toward her religion. But, crowds laugh. So what do I do? Offend my mom or satisfy the crowd?
Oni's hilariously offensive schticks would count.
Ok. But I don't think my mom would agree with you.
In fact, she found Carlin highly offensive, and I used to have to sneak around to listen to him and Pryor as a kid.
Hang a big "NIGGER!" sign on your house. Post a large Nazi flag across the street from the Synagogue. Hang a cartoon caricature of Muhammad out your window.
...or, spout anti-Catholic remarks on stage. It's highly subject, AZ.
In my mothers eyes, my anti-Catholic jokes, Carlin's jokes, or a sign saying "nigger" are all the same thing. Offensive material.
It has to do with pure unadulterated hate.
But I do hate the Catholic church, and any church who would cover up child molestation. My mom however, still defends her church and her faith, regardless of the molestation charges.
This upsets me very much about her POV, but what can I do, she's set in her ways. But trust me, if I did, and I do, a joke about preist's molesting kids, she would find it highly offensive. Thus the reason neither her or my dad have ever watched me on stage. But I'll save that for my therapist, you get what I mean though.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by AZPaul3, posted 09-04-2010 11:54 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by AZPaul3, posted 09-05-2010 2:01 AM onifre has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 327 of 406 (579564)
09-05-2010 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by onifre
09-04-2010 11:19 PM


Material v Motivation
Hang a big "NIGGER!" sign on your house. Post a large Nazi flag across the street from the Synagogue. Hang a cartoon caricature of Muhammad out your window.
...or, spout anti-Catholic remarks on stage. It's highly subject, AZ.
In my mothers eyes, my anti-Catholic jokes, Carlin's jokes, or a sign saying "nigger" are all the same thing. Offensive material.
I have no problem with the material. I do not even have any problem with its use to make a joke or political point.
I am interested in the motivation.
Taz wanted to hang a caricature of Muhammad out his window. I wonder if he fully realizes the significance of such an action in Islam. Thus the analogies to swastikas and bold red signs.
If someone wants to hate so hard as to be sociopathic then fine. I have no objection.
But I question whether Taz and Huntard realize just how hateful all Islam finds idols, images and caricatures of Muhammad and God.
If one is going to take an action, they should at least have an appreciation for the full extent of the message they are sending to their intended receiver. And if that is really where their heart is then fine, have at it.
Taz and Huntard strike me as people with their heads on straight. I would not have expected them to be so hateful, which led me to wonder if they truly understood the significance of such an action.
[aside]
You must love Stephen Lynch's "Alter Boy."
Don't show it to Mom.
[/aside]
Edited by AZPaul3, : the usual.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by onifre, posted 09-04-2010 11:19 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Coyote, posted 09-05-2010 2:06 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 346 by onifre, posted 09-07-2010 10:52 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 328 of 406 (579565)
09-05-2010 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by AZPaul3
09-05-2010 2:01 AM


Re: Material v Motivation
Taz and Hundard strike me as people with their heads on straight. I would not have expected them to be so hateful, which led me to wonder if they truly understood the significance of such an action.
Many of us found the 9/11 events pretty hateful as well, and are aware that those attacks were inspired by a particular religious belief and the hatred it engendered.
Sometimes we wonder why we should worry overmuch about the sensitivities of the parent group that promulgates those beliefs and that hatred.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by AZPaul3, posted 09-05-2010 2:01 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by AZPaul3, posted 09-05-2010 2:15 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 329 of 406 (579566)
09-05-2010 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by Coyote
09-05-2010 2:06 AM


Re: Material v Motivation
Sometimes we wonder why we should worry overmuch about the sensitivities of the parent group that promulgates those beliefs and that hatred.
I'm not saying you should.
I'm saying you should have a full knowledge of the message you are sending. I do not think Taz and Huntard, along with most others in the West, do.
As long as you understand the full impact of your action, then, if you are still so inclined, have at it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Coyote, posted 09-05-2010 2:06 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 330 of 406 (579680)
09-05-2010 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by onifre
09-04-2010 10:40 PM


onifre responds to me:
quote:
You're asking me how I determine who goes away without what they want, well I answered you.
Last time I checked, Park51 was not your stage. So no, it doesn't answer the question. We have a very specific scenario that has nothing to do with your profession. It would be nice if you would stop avoiding the question and answer it.
quote:
Because it happens to "everybody."
So? Why does something that happens to everybody mean that everybody has to lose something? Why can't the "fair" thing be that we follow what is right rather than try to maintain some sort of faux "equality"?
quote:
Unfair would be if it happened to only one single group continuously.
Huh? That makes no sense. We're not talking about who is getting the potshots thrown at them. We're talking about how we handle the response when potshots are thrown. Group A wants to construct something that Group B doesn't particularly like. How do we determine who goes away without what they want?
quote:
No, you mentioned them in your post and I explained to you that we're talking about the same people.
Incorrect. You mentioned "them" and I asked you who "they" were. You hemmed and hawed and continued to express vague generalities while I have indicated that I am referring to very specific people. I haven't named them (because there is an actual name to be had) because I am trying to determine if you actually know something about what you're talking about rather than trying to rewrite history.
And you have come through with flying colors: You didn't do any background study on the subject but simply rattled off an emotional bomb without thinking. When you got called on it, you immediately backtracked and tried to come up with some sort of justification for your claim...all the while still refusing to do any actual background study on the subject.
Who am I talking about, onifre? If you know who I'm talking about, you can give me the name.
quote:
Those "some Muslims" that threatened Comedy Central, that YOU mention, are the people I'm talking about too.
Yes, but who are they? See, when you say, "some Muslims," you don't mean any particular people but are referring to some nebulous, unknown, undefined morass of people.
When I say, "some Muslims," I have a specific group of people in mind by name.
If you are referring to the same people, then you can give me the name.
You did do your homework before you started in, yes?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by onifre, posted 09-04-2010 10:40 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by onifre, posted 09-07-2010 11:07 AM Rrhain has replied

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