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Author Topic:   Evolving the Musculoskeletal System
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 76 of 527 (577852)
08-30-2010 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
08-30-2010 6:35 PM


Anyway, why are you asking me to do it if you're so sure I'm such a risible moron?
Could it be that there's something you want to learn from me, after all?
Perhaps the meaning of "risible?"

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 08-30-2010 6:35 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 6:51 PM subbie has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 77 of 527 (577855)
08-30-2010 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
08-30-2010 6:35 PM


You know what Crashfrog? I don't even like you and its irritating to deal with you so I probably won't be answering your relies for much longer.
Crashfrog writes:
I asked why you think you need to have bones in order to have nerves
Ho hum...show me where I said "I think you need to have bones in order to have nerves".
Show me a organism that is under evolutionary construction that is surviving with an incomplete system please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 08-30-2010 6:35 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 08-30-2010 6:55 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 08-30-2010 7:05 PM ICdesign has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 78 of 527 (577856)
08-30-2010 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by subbie
08-30-2010 6:38 PM


none of this is on topic subbie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by subbie, posted 08-30-2010 6:38 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by subbie, posted 08-30-2010 7:06 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 79 of 527 (577857)
08-30-2010 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by nwr
08-30-2010 6:35 PM


nwr writes:
The thing is, when something is designed and has a large number of complexly related components that are mutually dependent on one another, the resulting designed product is quite fragile. Evolved things, by contrast, are fairly robust - they have to be or they would not survive to reproduce.
How does this explain the survival of an incomplete system?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by nwr, posted 08-30-2010 6:35 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Theodoric, posted 08-30-2010 7:09 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 86 by nwr, posted 08-30-2010 7:14 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 527 (577858)
08-30-2010 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ICdesign
08-30-2010 6:50 PM


ICDESIGN writes:
Show me a organism that is under evolutionary construction that is surviving with an incomplete system please.
Do you have any idea how silly that question is and why so many folk here chuckle when you make such comments?
It is really important that you understand how silly that one is, but to understand, you really need to figure it out on your own.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 6:50 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 7:01 PM jar has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 81 of 527 (577860)
08-30-2010 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
08-30-2010 6:55 PM


I concede. That was a dumb approach when there is no evolution taking place anywhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 08-30-2010 6:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 08-30-2010 7:11 PM ICdesign has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 82 of 527 (577861)
08-30-2010 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ICdesign
08-30-2010 6:50 PM


I don't even like you and its irritating to deal with you so I probably won't be answering your relies for much longer.
You're free to reply or not reply to any of my messages as you see fit, and you always have been. I suspect that this is simply what you say to people who have been so effective at rebutting your arguments that you literally don't know what to say.
Ho hum...show me where I said "I think you need to have bones in order to have nerves".
Well, you said it in message 71:
quote:
Besides the over 1200 components briefly mentioned previously, we also need to acknowledge all the other systems that directly support the Musculoskeletal system and in fact could not exist without the following;
The Neurological System; The Respiratory System and The Circulatory System...
The FACT is my friend, every system within our bodies is dependent on each other for survival.
So, exactly in what sense is it a "FACT" that our nerves are dependent on our bones for survival?
Show me a organism that is under evolutionary construction that is surviving with an incomplete system please.
All organisms are under evolutionary construction, at all times; all systems are "incomplete" compared with the functions they will gain in the future.
But if you wanted to see an organism surviving with incompletely-developed bones, muscles, skin, and nervous systems, you need look no farther than the nearest pregnant woman:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 6:50 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 7:26 PM crashfrog has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 83 of 527 (577862)
08-30-2010 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ICdesign
08-30-2010 6:51 PM


The topic, such as it is, was fully and completely addressed in the first dozen or so posts in the thread. There's really nothing of substance left to say, so all that remains, frankly, is to ridicule you.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 6:51 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 84 of 527 (577863)
08-30-2010 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ICdesign
08-30-2010 6:55 PM


How does this explain the survival of an incomplete system?
Who is the arbiter of what is complete or incomplete?
You question just shows that you don't even understand the TOE. You are arguing against something that only exists in your own mind.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 6:55 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 527 (577864)
08-30-2010 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ICdesign
08-30-2010 7:01 PM


ICDESIGN writes:
I concede. That was a dumb approach when there is no evolution taking place anywhere.
That's not a very good answer either so let's try again.
Here is the post you were responding to.
jar writes:
ICDESIGN writes:
Show me a organism that is under evolutionary construction that is surviving with an incomplete system please.
Do you have any idea how silly that question is and why so many folk here chuckle when you make such comments?
It is really important that you understand how silly that one is, but to understand, you really need to figure it out on your own.
Let me try to help you.
As a first step, what happens to a critter that is born with incomplete systems that are essential systems?
We will go slowly through this.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 7:01 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 7:27 PM jar has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 86 of 527 (577865)
08-30-2010 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ICdesign
08-30-2010 6:55 PM


ICdesign writes:
How does this explain the survival of an incomplete system?
Nature does not produce incomplete systems.
You are confused, because you are seeing purpose where there is none.
Let me suggest a thought experiment.
Go find a bright 6 year old kid, and a bunch of lego blocks. Preferably it should be the kind of 6 year old that happens to be interested in lego structures.
Experiment 1:
Give that kid an outline of an elaborate house or mansion, and ask him to build a lego structure that matches the outline. The chances are that he will at least try to build something similar to the outline. But his structure will very likely be quite fragile. Oh, and when it is half built, it will be an incomplete system.
Experiment 2:
Ask the same kid to build something that is both elaborate and robust. You might have to explain "robust" - I'm not sure if that's in a 6 year old vocabulary. The chances are that he will build something that is elaborate and robust. And when he is half done, it will still be elaborate and robust and won't be an incomplete system.
When there is no specific goal to be met, it is far easier to build something where everything fits together quite well. When there is a specific goal, that is far harder because the robustness requirement conflicts with the goal.
Evolution builds robust structures, precisely because there is no goal (other than robustness that supports survival and reproduction). And what evolution builds is never an incomplete system, precisely because there is no specific goal that it would have to meet to make it complete.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 6:55 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 87 of 527 (577868)
08-30-2010 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by crashfrog
08-30-2010 7:05 PM


Crashfrog writes:
So, exactly in what sense is it a "FACT" that our nerves are dependent on our bones for survival?
For one thing, your blood needs your bones. Do your nerves need blood?...can you live without your bones?...will your nerves survive if you die?
Crashfrog writes:
you need look no farther than the nearest pregnant woman:
I am talking about independent organisms...and you wonder why I don't like you?...I am really holding back here...Lord give me strength...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 08-30-2010 7:05 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by crashfrog, posted 08-30-2010 7:39 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 94 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-31-2010 12:58 AM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 100 by Dr Jack, posted 08-31-2010 1:22 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 88 of 527 (577869)
08-30-2010 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
08-30-2010 7:11 PM


please refer to my last private message to you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 08-30-2010 7:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 08-30-2010 7:55 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 89 of 527 (577873)
08-30-2010 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ICdesign
08-30-2010 7:26 PM


For one thing, your blood needs your bones
Earthworms have blood but no bones. How do you explain this discrepancy with your "FACTS"?
Or is this just about how I know so much more than you that I can't see "the truth" that no organism without bones could ever possibly survive or exist?
I am talking about independent organisms..
These organisms are independent, once they're born. But an organism's systems don't develop during its independent adulthood, they develop during its gestational period, in egg or womb, as the organism follows a genetic program of development. If an organism hasn't completed that program of development then it either hasn't been born yet or has died (and been expelled from the mother, if that's relevant.)
If you want to know how an organism's organs and systems develop, then you're necessarily looking at the prenatal, gestational phase of the organism's lifestyle, because that's where evolutionary changes to body plan and function by genetic mutation are actually enacted.
..and you wonder why I don't like you?
You've taken into your mind the deluded notion that I'm trying to make fun of you or make you feel stupid. Nothing could be further from the truth - I'm trying to share my knowledge with you. The fact that you continually spit into my outstretched hand is disappointing, mystifying, and (if I may) does not speak well to your character.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 7:26 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ICdesign, posted 09-01-2010 3:53 AM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 527 (577876)
08-30-2010 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ICdesign
08-30-2010 7:27 PM


You mean "The Lord has shown my heart that your fate has been sealed and to stay clear of you so this is the last I have to say to you." that one?
What does that have to do with you learning the answer to the question you raised?
Do you want to learn how life evolves?
Let me try to help you.
As a first step, what happens to a critter that is born with incomplete systems that are essential systems?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ICdesign, posted 08-30-2010 7:27 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
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