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Author Topic:   Evolving the Musculoskeletal System
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 16 of 527 (577436)
08-28-2010 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by DrJones*
08-28-2010 7:50 PM


how do you determine what is the "right" joint and that it is in the "proper" place?
uhh, common sense? observing and acknowledging the obvious?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by DrJones*, posted 08-28-2010 7:50 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 17 of 527 (577439)
08-28-2010 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICdesign
08-28-2010 8:08 PM


uhh, common sense? observing and acknowledging the obvious?
So by assumng the joint is the "right" one and hat it is in its "proper" place?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ICdesign, posted 08-28-2010 8:08 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 527 (577441)
08-28-2010 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ICdesign
08-28-2010 7:36 PM


You've been given the answers.
First, the bones, muscles and joints are not the best or right ones, they are the ones that were just good enough to let the critter live long enough to reproduce and gradually overtime confer an advantage to one critter over another.
The evidence that they are NOT the right ones, or best ones, is that we can build mechanical devices to do the job of limbs even better than the ones living things have even when we have to retrofit our improvements into the original critter.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ICdesign, posted 08-28-2010 7:36 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 19 of 527 (577443)
08-28-2010 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICdesign
08-28-2010 2:32 PM


TimeTimeTimeTimeTimeTime
How did Evolution manage to put the correct joint in the appropriate position?
The inheritability of characteristics, differential breeding success, and random mutation operated over vast stretches of time. For more detail, consult crash's posts--he's done a masterful job.
*yawn*
Is incredulity really all you got?

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICdesign, posted 08-28-2010 2:32 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ICdesign, posted 08-28-2010 8:51 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 20 of 527 (577445)
08-28-2010 8:48 PM


Pound for pound bones are stronger than steel yet they are much lighter. That is more than just good enough.
Like steel girders in a skyscraper, their role is mostly for support, but they also have the functions of protection, movement, blood formation, electrolyte balance, pH corrections, and detoxification.
Bones are thickest where the greatest pressures occur, and the most flexible where give is needed. Unlike steel girders, they are capable of self-repair! (put that in your "we can build better" pipe and smoke it!)
Some are rounded at their ends to rotate within joints; some are grooved to conduct blood vessels and nerves;
Some are beveled, like the skull, so that the pieces fit perfectly together.
Some are centrally porous to contain bone marrow, where blood cells are made.
...just enough to get bye? not hardly!

Replies to this message:
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 Message 34 by nwr, posted 08-28-2010 11:21 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 21 of 527 (577446)
08-28-2010 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Omnivorous
08-28-2010 8:45 PM


Re: TimeTimeTimeTimeTimeTime
*yawn*
...my thoughts exactly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Omnivorous, posted 08-28-2010 8:45 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Omnivorous, posted 08-28-2010 9:27 PM ICdesign has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 22 of 527 (577450)
08-28-2010 9:08 PM


Moderator on Duty
If the two sides do not want to engage in constructive discussion then I can just close the thread. Up to you guys.
ICDESIGN - I know you're not happy with the answers you've been provided, but just rejecting them outright and repeating your position leaves the other side nothing to do but repeat their answers.
Everyone - Obviously some kind of inspiration is required if progress is to be made. Please be creative in seeking a meeting of the minds.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 527 (577452)
08-28-2010 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICdesign
08-28-2010 8:48 PM


ICDESIGN writes:
Pound for pound bones are stronger than steel yet they are much lighter.
That's one of those kinda right facts that are great to misdirect attention. The most compact bones may have higher tensile strength then mild steel pound for pound, but not of most steels. BUT...even if true it is irrelevant since we can build even stronger and pound for pound lighter structures then bones.
ICDESIGN writes:
Bones are thickest where the greatest pressures occur, and the most flexible where give is needed. Unlike steel girders, they are capable of self-repair! (put that in your "we can build better" pipe and smoke it!)
Another example of an attempt at misrepresentation. Guess what, Natural selection explains that. Critters born with bones that break easily die young and don't get to pass on their genes.
And we can also design self repairing structures.
ICDESIGN writes:
Some are rounded at their ends to rotate within joints; some are grooved to conduct blood vessels and nerves;
Some are beveled, like the skull, so that the pieces fit perfectly together.
Guess what, the critters born with parts that don't fit together die before they get to pass on their genes. Ain't Natural Selection great?
ICDESIGN writes:
Some are centrally porous to contain bone marrow, where blood cells are made.
Guess what. Critters born without the holes for bone marrow either use some other system or...die before they get to pass on their genes. Ain't Natural Selection great?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ICdesign, posted 08-28-2010 8:48 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 24 of 527 (577453)
08-28-2010 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICdesign
08-28-2010 8:51 PM


What you answered, what you didn't
Look, ICDESIGN, here's what's happening.
You made your case for design based on the engineering marvel of the human body.
Your name defines what you see: you see design.
You got two major types of reply before my previous one: what makes you think this design is so hot, and why couldn't evolution have produced it.
You answer the first by repeating how amazing the body is; you answer the second by repeating how amazing the body is: both answers repeat your initial claim.
Then I replied by noting the mechanism of evolution in a little bit different terms and noted, sarcastically, that all you've offered is your amazement. I also remarked on how important deep time is to the process of evolution, both in my text and in my subtitle.
So, yes, I was gently mocking your replies, but I was also adding to the debate while reminding you that you hadn't answered any of the counterarguments. You replied to my sarcasm with your own--but you didn't answer my points.
Like Admin noted, repetition spawns repetition and spirals into a closed thread.
It's not enough to say the amazing, marvelous body must be designed. You have to say why, and you have to respond to counterarguments. Otherwise, we're just throwing rocks at each other for fun.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Edited by Omnivorous, : typos

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ICdesign, posted 08-28-2010 8:51 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ICdesign, posted 08-28-2010 10:37 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 25 of 527 (577455)
08-28-2010 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
08-28-2010 2:43 PM


Evidence please. Evidence must be something we can see, taste, smell or touch-and must be repeatable and predictable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 08-28-2010 2:43 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Coyote, posted 08-28-2010 10:33 PM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 36 by Percy, posted 08-29-2010 7:24 AM Bolder-dash has replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 26 of 527 (577456)
08-28-2010 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
08-28-2010 6:52 PM


One of his questions was, where are the false starts? What you are showing here are not simple small mutations to one small part of one bone, that could start a revolutionary new trait if NS would select for it. So the examples you showed do not support the ToE, they rather contradict it, because what they show is that each time you have a gross mutation, it is damaging to the organism. Nature has lots of examples of gross damage mutations can cause-we are asking for examples of positive ones-which your theory needs quite a lot lot lot of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 08-28-2010 6:52 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 08-28-2010 10:11 PM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 08-28-2010 11:18 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 527 (577457)
08-28-2010 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Bolder-dash
08-28-2010 10:04 PM


Bolder-dash writes:
One of his questions was, where are the false starts?
Everywhere. They are called extinct species. And as has been pointed out many times in this thread, the serious errors don't live long.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-28-2010 10:04 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 28 of 527 (577459)
08-28-2010 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Bolder-dash
08-28-2010 9:56 PM


Ignoring evidence
Evidence please. Evidence must be something we can see, taste, smell or touch-and must be repeatable and predictable.
Are you familiar with the fossil record, and all the museums and library floors devoted to the details?
Before you jump on the creationist bandwagon and say "it's too complex" you should really be familiar with some of that evidence.
Religious belief is fine, but in this case it is contradicted by huge amounts of empirical evidence--repeatable and predictable. Ignoring that evidence and claiming "goddidit" is a very weak argument and won't impress anyone who is not already a true believer.
(See also tagline below.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-28-2010 9:56 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 29 of 527 (577460)
08-28-2010 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Omnivorous
08-28-2010 9:27 PM


Re: What you answered, what you didn't
It's not enough to say the amazing, marvelous body must be designed.
Actually sir, I haven't been making the case for a designer if you will look at my opening statement.
As Bolder-dash pointed out; where is the evidence to support your claims? All you guys are holding hands at the alter of random mutation/ natural selection singing cume-bye-yah with a blank chalk board.
Where are all the false starts that you guys claim have died off?
There should be millions of them.
Take a section (any section) of the body and explain piece by piece
a feasible rendition of how small mutations gradually developed into all the bones and joints that make up that section.
Explain how those mutations were necessary for the survival of the organism.
You guys are always providing drawings. Draw out the process and lets take a look at something tangible for a change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Omnivorous, posted 08-28-2010 9:27 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Omnivorous, posted 08-28-2010 11:04 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 08-29-2010 7:45 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 30 of 527 (577463)
08-28-2010 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ICdesign
08-28-2010 7:36 PM


What does 26 bones, 31 joints and 20 muscles in the foot have to do with survival?
Ask a cripple. What do you think your chances of outrunning a cave bear with a clubfoot are?
How did rm/ns develop 5 different joints and manage to put the right joint in the proper place?
Because not having the proper joint in the proper place is a significant disadvantage. Someone with a saddle joint between the femur and the pelvis isn't going to be able to stand, much less walk. Immobility is a significant survival disadvantage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ICdesign, posted 08-28-2010 7:36 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
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