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Author Topic:   How to call the infallible to account.... (re: The Pope)
Bikerman
Member (Idle past 4955 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 31 of 43 (576396)
08-23-2010 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Artemis Entreri
08-23-2010 12:53 PM


quote:
just because some haters suspect you of something deosn't mean you cant have moral authority.
It is a bit more than that. We have the documents available, and the fact that the order was given is not contested. The fact that Ratzinger was responsible is also not contested. So suspicion is not really the correct word. Since no trial is available then one cannot accurately say he is legally guilty, but then he could never be so, so we reduce to tautology.
quote:
think you are confusing sacrements here, the one you speak of is called, appropriately enough, Confirmation.
No, I am not. I meant what I said - baptism. Confirmation is, theologically, a perfection of baptism which enriches the member with the strength of the holy spirit. It isn't itself a membership requirement.
Once you are baptised, in Catholic theology, then you are a member of the church. The only way out is ex-communication and EVEN THAT does not mean that you are technically no longer a Catholic Christian - just that you are out of communion with the church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-23-2010 12:53 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-25-2010 4:40 PM Bikerman has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 32 of 43 (576799)
08-25-2010 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Bikerman
08-23-2010 11:10 PM


quote:
Since no trial is available then one cannot accurately say he is legally guilty, but then he could never be so, so we reduce to tautology.
Where I come from you are innocent until proven guilty, in court. Besides if he asked for forgiveness I would forgive him.
quote:
It isn't itself a membership requirement.
I agree, but once you are confirmed the worst you can ever be (outside of excommunication), is a bad catholic. Since infants are often baptised in the RCC tradition, Confirmation, is really just the adult baptism where you, yourself agree, instead of someone else agreeing for you. If you have not recieved the Sacrement of Confirmation, then I don't think you have anything to worry about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Bikerman, posted 08-23-2010 11:10 PM Bikerman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Bikerman, posted 08-26-2010 12:49 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied
 Message 34 by Bikerman, posted 08-26-2010 1:17 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Bikerman
Member (Idle past 4955 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 33 of 43 (576917)
08-26-2010 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Artemis Entreri
08-25-2010 4:40 PM


quote:
Where I come from you are innocent until proven guilty, in court. Besides if he asked for forgiveness I would forgive him.
That is fine, as long as you are subject to court in the first place. The argument that someone who is not subject to judgement is entitled to the presumption of innocence is logically absurd.
quote:
I agree, but once you are confirmed the worst you can ever be (outside of excommunication), is a bad catholic. Since infants are often baptised in the RCC tradition, Confirmation, is really just the adult baptism where you, yourself agree, instead of someone else agreeing for you. If you have not recieved the Sacrement of Confirmation, then I don't think you have anything to worry about.
You are not correct, and in fact your view is heretical. I know Catholic theology pretty well, and what you are proposing is in direct conflict with that theology. The worst I can be, confirmed or unconfirmed, is a bad Catholic.
I have actually tested the proposition. I applied, under the provisions of the data protection act, to have my details removed from the parish register. No go, said the Church, that register is a permenant record of your entry into the catholic church, and is a matter of public record, therefore the Act allows us to refuse your request. It is a point of law which I would like to debate with them, but unfortunately I don't have sufficient spare money to do so at this point in time.
Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-25-2010 4:40 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
Bikerman
Member (Idle past 4955 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 34 of 43 (576923)
08-26-2010 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Artemis Entreri
08-25-2010 4:40 PM


quote:
Where I come from you are innocent until proven guilty, in court. Besides if he asked for forgiveness I would forgive him.
That is fine, as long as you are subject to court in the first place. The argument that someone who is not subject to judgement by a court is nontheless entitled to the presumption of innocence is absurd.
quote:
I agree, but once you are confirmed the worst you can ever be (outside of excommunication), is a bad catholic. Since infants are often baptised in the RCC tradition, Confirmation, is really just the adult baptism where you, yourself agree, instead of someone else agreeing for you. If you have not recieved the Sacrement of Confirmation, then I don't think you have anything to worry about.
You are not correct, and in fact your view is heretical. I know Catholic theology pretty well, and what you are proposing is in direct conflict with that theology. The worst I can be, confirmed or unconfirmed, is a bad Catholic.
I have actually tested the proposition. I applied, under the provisions of the data protection act, to have my details removed from the parish register. No go, said the Church, that register is a permenant record of your entry into the catholic church, and is a matter of public record, therefore the Act allows us to refuse your request. It is a point of law which I would like to debate with them, but unfortunately I don't have sufficient spare money to do so at this point in time.
Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-25-2010 4:40 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-26-2010 5:01 PM Bikerman has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 35 of 43 (576953)
08-26-2010 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Bikerman
08-26-2010 1:17 PM


heresy
quote:
You are not correct, and in fact your view is heretical.
where is the heresy?
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : i spel bad

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Bikerman, posted 08-26-2010 1:17 PM Bikerman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Bikerman, posted 08-26-2010 5:56 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied
 Message 37 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2010 9:19 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Bikerman
Member (Idle past 4955 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 36 of 43 (576970)
08-26-2010 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Artemis Entreri
08-26-2010 5:01 PM


Re: heresy
Confirmation is not an adult baptism. Baptism is a one-off erent. Confirmation is a repeatable sacrement. The two are distinct and complementary. To say otherwise is to go against Catholic dogma...
quote:
Although Confirmation is sometimes called the 'sacrament of Christian maturity,' we must not confuse adult faith with the adult age of natural growth, nor forget that the baptismal grace is a grace of free, unmerited election and does not need 'ratification' to become effective.
Catechism 1308
Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-26-2010 5:01 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 37 of 43 (577126)
08-27-2010 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Artemis Entreri
08-26-2010 5:01 PM


Re: heresy
where is the heresy?
Evidently you are not Catholic. Or if you are, isn't a little disturbing that atheist, recovering Catholics(because we evidently can never become ex-Catholics) know more about your religion than you do?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-26-2010 5:01 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-27-2010 9:21 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 38 of 43 (577128)
08-27-2010 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Theodoric
08-27-2010 9:19 AM


Re: heresy
wow are you still trying to troll?
you are pathetic at it, and should give up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2010 9:19 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2010 10:16 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 39 of 43 (577147)
08-27-2010 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Artemis Entreri
08-27-2010 9:21 AM


Re: heresy
So you have nothing to say to the actual post? Would you care to defend your argument at all?
I guess you truly have nothing to add to conversations.
Go ahead show us how you explanation about baptism and confirmation in the Catholic church is the correct explanation. Since you have nothing to add how about you just STFU.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-27-2010 9:21 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Bikerman, posted 08-27-2010 1:43 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 41 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-28-2010 9:51 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Bikerman
Member (Idle past 4955 days)
Posts: 276
From: Frodsham, Chester
Joined: 07-30-2010


Message 40 of 43 (577199)
08-27-2010 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Theodoric
08-27-2010 10:16 AM


Re: heresy
Catholic dogma is only difficult if you forget what you are doing and leave any trace of critical thinking in place. Then, of course, you will get nowhere. The first step is to realise that it is meaningless. Then it becomes relatively easy to learn chunks of catechism and scriptural material. The catechisms cannot, of course, be derived from first principles because there are no such principles. We must therefore treat them as axioms - they are true because they are true - which in turn means you have to learn them.
All Catholics need to be able to juggle two or three mutually contradictory ideas at any single time, but with sufficient practice it is possible to hold as many as 9 mutually contradictory ideas in the air at once. *
* I believe the Pope may be having a crack at the record soon when he issues his next Encyclical. Rumour has it that he will attempt the Trinity tease, the Transubstantiation twist and the condom curse all in the same encyclical and without the aid of a dictionary. The 5th Division light infantry Jesuits will be in close support with armour piercing depleted logic ordnance - known as Dumb-Dumb rounds.
Edited by Bikerman, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2010 10:16 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 41 of 43 (577351)
08-28-2010 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Theodoric
08-27-2010 10:16 AM


Re: heresy
and what have you actually posted to add to this?
oh yeah nothing (as usual), just your common attempts to troll me. I will not feed you so you should shut the fuck up unless you have something add, I was talking to bikerman here, and your simple mind had to jump in with ridicule. everything you just said to me you should say to the man in the mirror 1st.
you may be the worst regular poster on here.
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2010 10:16 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2010 2:46 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 42 of 43 (577398)
08-28-2010 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Artemis Entreri
08-28-2010 9:51 AM


Re: heresy
Do you want another explanation of why you are wrong about baptism and confirmation in the Catholic church, or is what Bikerman explained enough.
I was inquiring whether you were Catholic, because you seem to think you know the sacraments but do not. My point was that if you are Catholic it should bother you that lapsed Catholics are more knowledgeable than you.
The position you staked out originally would be looked upon as heresy. Funny how you have ignored what others had said bout it being heresy and have refused to make any attempt to defend you position.
you may be the worst regular poster on here.
because I am willing to call you on the crap you post?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-28-2010 9:51 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-28-2010 3:22 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 43 of 43 (577404)
08-28-2010 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Theodoric
08-28-2010 2:46 PM


Re: heresy
because I am willing to call you on the crap you post?
nah, because you are just a taking head, a hack. you dont ever contribute unless it is to call people names, most of the time (like here in this thread) you just repeat something that a more intelligent poster already stated.
if this site had an ignore button i would never read any thought you had ever. but unfourtunately there is no ignore button on this message board site, so i have to read things from theodoric and buzzsaw (two peas in pod).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2010 2:46 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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