Summations Only

This was not ending his own life. This was someone else ending it. And yes, these things happen. The extent to which they happen is a fairly good indicator of how far from civilised a society can be considered. And the good ole US is not stacking up too well based upon this thread... Because to me and to that guy's family, they are irrelevant. You are so entrapped within your own society's bizarre fixation with guns and deadly force that you just cannot even sense the possibility of becoming more civilised; cannot begin to consider that deadly force is something that should not ever be considered unless it is of the last resort.Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

I was principally refering to your police force.

I thought eventually the error of thinking this way would just reveal itself in this thread to my comrades, but it hasn't.What I find curious is, how on earth do you guys in the UK go about protecting your microwaves without guns?- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

What? No they most certainly would not. Only in a case where the perp had a gun, and only when they were at risk of being shot. In all other case, non-lethal force MUST be used by an officer.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

Sure, but it wasn't their fault. Like someone who wanders out into traffic and gets hit by a bus - it's their decision, their fault, even if it was really the driver of the bus who ended their life.He was breaking the law, trying to break into someone else's home, and they responded to the threat with deadly force. Perfectly justified, but unfortunate for the man whose drunken mistake ended his life. But it's the exact same in your country, cave. Birthday drunk 'stabbed to death by neighbour' who mistook him for burglar after he went to WRONG house | Daily Mail Online

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A drunk was stabbed to death by a terrified neighbour who mistook him for a burglar as he returned to the wrong house, it was claimed today.
Mark Woods, who would have been 33 today, was coming back from a night of early birthday celebrations when, instead of going to his own house, he tried to unlock the front door of Edwin Pitkin's home.
Hearing the noise, 58-year-old Mr Pitkin allegedly grabbed a knife and a fight broke out in which Mr Woods was fatally stabbed.

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Were you there? Were his family there? No? Then what you know and the family knows is completely irrelevant. You weren't there to make the decision to use deadly force - the residents of the home were, and therefore the only relevant consideration is what they knew and could have known.So answer the questions. It was used as the last resort in this case. The problem is that you're obsessed with the idea that homeowners, and only homeowners, can't arrive at a decision about when they're arrived at the last resort without consulting you.Well, you weren't there. The man's family wasn't there. The only people who had a responsibility to that man's safety weren't there. If you really must blame someone for this man's death, someone besides himself, then it's the family and the friends who failed to make sure he wasn't trying to break into the wrong house who failed him. The residents of the home were responsible for their own safety, and only their own safety, and they used force to protect it. As they were justified in doing.If someone came at you with a knife, wouldn't you fight and kill to defend yourself? If it emerged later that it had all been an incredibly strange misunderstanding, the man had been hired by your friends to surprise you with a rubber knife, how could you possibly be guilty of murder? That's insane. How were you supposed to know it was rubber? Let him stab you with it?

They have guns. Gun crimes in the UK have risen almost 250 percent since the 90's, even as UK gun control laws have become more and more strict and the government lies to British citizens about it.

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THE government was accused yesterday of covering up the full extent of the gun crime epidemic sweeping Britain, after official figures showed that gun-related killings and injuries had risen more than fourfold since 1998.

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The Home Office figures - which exclude crimes involving air weapons - show the number of deaths and injuries caused by gun attacks in England and Wales soared from 864 in 1998-99 to 3,821 in 2005-06. That means that more than 10 people are injured or killed in a gun attack every day.

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This weekend the Tories said the figures challenged claims by Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, that gun crime was falling. David Davis, the shadow home secretary, tells her in a letter today that the staggering findings show her claims that gun crime has fallen are inaccurate and misleading.

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You know, but I'm sure The Times is just one of our gun-obsessed American papers.

Police don't use lethal force to ensure compliance but they do use it to protect themselves physically. If the intruder resisted attempts to physically remove him from the premises, disobeyed officer instructions, and put officers at risk by fighting them, him being shot is one possible outcome of that situation.The much safer resolution of that situation is for the resident to use necessary force. Because, you know, if the police come in as he's gun-covering the intruder, they may think he's the intruder. Much safer to use appropriate force.

Just a few miles north of you in Canada, we don't use guns to protect our microwaves either. We do lock our doors though.

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Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

On the contrary, if the police find somebody standing over a dead body, they'll come in a lot more aggressively.

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Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

Once the intruder's down you can put the gun down, which obviates the possibility of being mistaken for the intruder by police. If you have to gun-cover the intruder for your safety, you're put in the dangerous position of choosing whether to be at risk from the police or from the intruder.

What if he's down but not dead? Do you finish him off or do you risk putting your weapon down when the danger might not be over?

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Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

Added bonus? You didn't say that last time, sneaky frog. Of course if you try to fight cops the result may be lethal, but not usually. Even then, a cop will try his/her best to use non-lethal force. They may think he's the intruder AND he just killed someone. Wouldn't that make shit a lot worse?- Oni

Gun homicides UK 2006-07: 59 source
Knife homicides UK 2006-07: ~240 source
Gun homicides US 2005: 10,100 sourceSo UK gun and knife homicides ~5 per million capita
and US gun only homicides ~33 per million capitaLet's talk again when you get that down a bit...

If he's no longer a threat there's no further need for force. If he's down but still a threat there's still a need for force.I don't think it's complicated, Ringo. It's about using the necessary force to protect yourself, not living out your fantasies of gunning down the bad guys. If that's what you want to do, join the military. Your military shoots people same as ours, Ringo.

I don't understand. Are you the only one who gets to specify hypotheticals? Not at all. Police aren't there for revenge, they're there to secure the situation. Someone who's just murdered someone is a lot less dangerous to apprehend than someone about to murder someone.Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.