Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Detecting God
sac51495
Member (Idle past 4718 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 181 of 271 (574708)
08-17-2010 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by hooah212002
08-17-2010 10:23 AM


Re: Correct, but uselessly so
hooah,
Love is a feeling.
What comprises a feeling?
I don't deal in truths, I deal in reason, logic and evidence. Facts are facts and are not up for discussion.
"Facts are facts"...Is this statement truth?
You ALL interpret the same book in your own way
I can interpret the 2nd law of thermodynamics ("In a system, a process that occurs will tend to increase the total entropy of the universe.") as saying "In a system of equations, a variable (process) that occurs will tend to increase the total entropy of the equation". This would appear to be a mis-interpretation of what the law says, and the reasons for why it is a mis-interpretation can range from internal contradiction, to contextual conflict, or to arbitrariness. So it is with all mis-interpretations of text: either the reader's interpretation contradicts itself, conflicts with the context, or is arbitrary. So it is with mis-interpretations of the text of the Word of God. But do conflicting interpretations of a text discount the validity of the text? If this was so, I could - just to decrease the reliability of physical laws - interpret physical laws incorrectly, and make them less reliable. And, by the way, none of this is to say that I claim to have the perfect interpretation of Scripture: we all have wrong interpretations, unfortunately, but the way to deal with this is absolutely not to attempt to justify our mis-interpretations by claiming the the text is subjective; rather, we strive towards correct interpretations through discussion, studying, and prayer.
Why do there tend to be more mis-interpretations of the Word of God than of physical laws? Because no one has a good reason for wanting to mis-interpret physical laws; but, oftentimes, the text of the Word of God will conflict with a man's anthropocentric ideology, so he will interpret the text in such a way that it does not condemn his anthropocentric actions and ideology.
"Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthymeditate on these things." (Phil. 4:8)
"This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success." (Joshua 1:8)
"But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and in His law he meditates day and night." (Psalm 1:2)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by hooah212002, posted 08-17-2010 10:23 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by hooah212002, posted 08-17-2010 12:12 PM sac51495 has replied
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 08-17-2010 1:52 PM sac51495 has replied
 Message 184 by hooah212002, posted 08-17-2010 2:07 PM sac51495 has not replied
 Message 185 by nwr, posted 08-17-2010 2:38 PM sac51495 has not replied
 Message 186 by jar, posted 08-17-2010 3:37 PM sac51495 has replied
 Message 196 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-19-2010 8:01 AM sac51495 has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 182 of 271 (574712)
08-17-2010 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by sac51495
08-17-2010 11:36 AM


Re: Correct, but uselessly so
What comprises a feeling?
Fuck if I know. I'm not a philosopher.
I can interpret the 2nd law of thermodynamics
Sure, you can interpret what the words say, but it IS what it IS. Your interpretation doesn't change what IS. Just like you can't interpret a tree to be made of limestone.
That's partially my point: the bible is JUST a bunch of words open for interpretation to anyone, while you ALL claim to know exactly what they mean and be the final authority. "don't question god".
Why do there tend to be more mis-interpretations of the Word of God
Because the "word of [insert deity of choice]" is just parables and mythical fairy tales written by man. They are feel good stories, so it is understandable that they are interpreted differently. The problem I have with that is the way religious types claim moral superiority because of their particular interpretation and claim it to be "trvth". Religion has practically changed the meaning of the word truth.
Because no one has a good reason for wanting to mis-interpret physical laws;
Be my guest to misinterpret gravity. Just let me get my video camera when you jump off the empire state building.
....preaching.....bible quotes
I can interpret those any way I wish and there is NO logical way you can tell me I am wrong. They are JUST words.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by sac51495, posted 08-17-2010 11:36 AM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by sac51495, posted 08-18-2010 9:57 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 183 of 271 (574734)
08-17-2010 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by sac51495
08-17-2010 11:36 AM


sac51495 writes:
but, oftentimes, the text of the Word of God will conflict with a man's anthropocentric ideology, so he will interpret the text in such a way that it does not condemn his anthropocentric actions and ideology.
Does it occur to you that the misanthropic interpretations might be the ones that are wrong? Who's supposed to benefit from the "Word of God" after all? God or man?

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by sac51495, posted 08-17-2010 11:36 AM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by sac51495, posted 08-18-2010 10:04 PM ringo has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 184 of 271 (574738)
08-17-2010 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by sac51495
08-17-2010 11:36 AM


Re: Correct, but uselessly so
but, oftentimes, the text of the Word of God will conflict with a man's anthropocentric ideology, so he will interpret the text in such a way that it does not condemn his anthropocentric actions and ideology.
So here again, you have your own interpretation of how the bible is to be read and are judging how other people read it.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by sac51495, posted 08-17-2010 11:36 AM sac51495 has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 185 of 271 (574741)
08-17-2010 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by sac51495
08-17-2010 11:36 AM


Re: Correct, but uselessly so
sac51495 writes:
I can interpret the 2nd law of thermodynamics ("In a system, a process that occurs will tend to increase the total entropy of the universe.") as saying ...
That is not how the 2nd law is usually stated. I'm not even sure whether "the total entropy of the universe" makes sense.
sac51495 writes:
Why do there tend to be more mis-interpretations of the Word of God than of physical laws?
I'll take "word of God" as a metaphor for "the Bible." Why there are many interpretations is obvious enough. What the Bible itself says is actually rather straightforward. However, it is contains many contradictions and factual errors. Conservative Christian groups want to delude themselves into the belief that the Bible is inerrant. In order to so delude themselves, they must read their own interpretations into the Bible, instead of reading what it actually says. The reason that there are so many interpretations, is that there are many different Christian groups with their own made up theologies that they want to insist on reading into the text.
Personally, I think it makes more sense to read it as it is, warts and all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by sac51495, posted 08-17-2010 11:36 AM sac51495 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 186 of 271 (574748)
08-17-2010 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by sac51495
08-17-2010 11:36 AM


Re: Correct, but uselessly so
sac51495 writes:
Why do there tend to be more mis-interpretations of the Word of God than of physical laws?
Two major problems there.
First, there is no universal agreement of what the "Word of God" even is. There is not even a universal agreement what books should be in a "Bible". Since there is not even such a thing as "The Word of God" there cannot help but be misinterpretations.
Second, physical laws can be tested and verified. The "Word of God" cannot be tested or verified.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by sac51495, posted 08-17-2010 11:36 AM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by sac51495, posted 08-18-2010 10:15 PM jar has replied

  
sac51495
Member (Idle past 4718 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 187 of 271 (575108)
08-18-2010 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by hooah212002
08-17-2010 12:12 PM


Re: Correct, but uselessly so
hooah,
... if I know. I'm not a philosopher
How then can you say that love is a feeling, if you don't even know what a feeling is? I wasn't exactly asking a philosophical question...you were supposed to give a material explanation for love, if you are a materialist; if not, then...I don't know what answer you would give.
Sure, you can interpret what the words say, but it IS what it IS. Your interpretation doesn't change what IS.
Sure, you can interpret the Word of God to mean whatever you want...but it IS what it IS. Your - or anybody else' interpretation for that matter - interpretation does not change what it IS:
quote:
And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. And He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ~ Exodus 3:14
...while you ALL claim to know exactly what they mean and be the final authority. "don't question god"...
I would agree that you should not question God. Question me? Yes....This is why I try to quote Scripture as much as a can on here: I know that my words have no power whatsoever, and that my words can be questioned: but the Word of God is not to be questioned. No interpretation of significance is needed to understand this verse: "The fool has said in his heart,'There is no God.' They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good." (Psalm 14:1).
Now you can read those words and try to understand what they mean, but if you come up with a wrong interpretation, then it is your own fault, just as it was my own fault that I came up with such a faulty interpretation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Who's to say what the "correct" interpretation of the verse is? God is, not me. God and God alone gets to judge people: "Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man’s all. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil." [emphasis mine](Ecc. 12:13-14); "But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who 'will render to each one according to his deeds'". (Romans 2:15-16).
Do I think I have it all right?
quote:
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. ~ Philippians 3:12-16
But certainly I can reason with you, and tell you why I think my interpretation of the text is, (1), in better accordance with the context, (2), logically sound, and (3), sensible (perhaps others could be listed): "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear" (1 Peter 3:15).
Be my guest to misinterpret gravity. Just let me get my video camera when you jump off the empire state building.
And you might be inclined, perhaps, to try and convince me that gravity really does exist, so that I don't kill myself: I also am trying to convince you that God really does exist, as does the Word (logos).
I can interpret those any way I wish and there is NO logical way you can tell me I am wrong. They are JUST words.
I can just as well say that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is exclusively words...But I believe that the Word of God is "living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Heb. 4:12).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by hooah212002, posted 08-17-2010 12:12 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by hooah212002, posted 08-18-2010 10:25 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
sac51495
Member (Idle past 4718 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 188 of 271 (575110)
08-18-2010 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by ringo
08-17-2010 1:52 PM


Ringo,
Does it occur to you that the misanthropic interpretations might be the ones that are wrong?
No, because that was not my interpretation. My interpretation is that the universe is "theocentric", by virtue of the fact that God created it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 08-17-2010 1:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by ringo, posted 08-18-2010 11:24 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
sac51495
Member (Idle past 4718 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 189 of 271 (575113)
08-18-2010 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by jar
08-17-2010 3:37 PM


Re: Correct, but uselessly so
jar,
First, there is no universal agreement of what the "Word of God" even is. There is not even a universal agreement what books should be in a "Bible". Since there is not even such a thing as "The Word of God" there cannot help but be misinterpretations.
Paul said that if anybody else preached a gospel other than the one that they (Paul, Peter, John, Matthew, etc.) preached, that that man should be accursed...the men who wrote the Bible were inspired by God, so that the words were products not of men, but of God. What basis is there for believing the words in the Bible to be any more true than other so-called inspired writings? By deciding whether or not they conflict with God's Law, which He wrote down with His own finger. What reason do I have for believing God's Law and the books that it is put in to be true? By the impossibility of the contrary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 08-17-2010 3:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by jar, posted 08-18-2010 10:24 PM sac51495 has not replied
 Message 192 by hooah212002, posted 08-18-2010 10:31 PM sac51495 has not replied
 Message 193 by bluescat48, posted 08-18-2010 10:38 PM sac51495 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 190 of 271 (575114)
08-18-2010 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by sac51495
08-18-2010 10:15 PM


Re: Correct, but uselessly so
sac51495 writes:
Paul said that if anybody else preached a gospel other than the one that they (Paul, Peter, John, Matthew, etc.) preached, that that man should be accursed...the men who wrote the Bible were inspired by God, so that the words were products not of men, but of God.
But that still offers no evidence or a way to detect a god nor is there any evidence that the men who wrote the Bible stories (remember no one wrote the Bible, that has always been the product of unknown committees) were inspired by god.
If God was involved the God was NOT very consistent since there is no universally accepted Canon, there are many many gospels for example that never made it into the Western Canon. In addition none of the gospels you mention were even written at the time Paul wrote that.
sac51495 writes:
What basis is there for believing the words in the Bible to be any more true than other so-called inspired writings? By deciding whether or not they conflict with God's Law, which He wrote down with His own finger.
Huh? You mean "Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin"? What else did God write with his very own finger?
sac51495 writes:
What reason do I have for believing God's Law and the books that it is put in to be true? By the impossibility of the contrary.
HUH?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by sac51495, posted 08-18-2010 10:15 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 191 of 271 (575115)
08-18-2010 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by sac51495
08-18-2010 9:57 PM


Re: Correct, but uselessly so
Sure, you can interpret the Word of God to mean whatever you want...but it IS what it IS. Your - or anybody else' interpretation for that matter - interpretation does not change what it IS:
Funny how your word of god is completely different from a Muslim or a Jew, or a Protestant or a Catholic or a Methodist. Like I said, your "word of god" is NOTHING more than mere words written by sheep herders 2000 years ago.
I can just as well say that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is exclusively words...But I believe that the Word of God is "living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Heb. 4:12).
Do you understand the difference between written words and reality? I'm thinking the answer is no. The only "word of god" you have is words written by man.
Would you care to provide some evidence here? I mean, that IS what this thread is about, isn't it? It's ok if you admit you have none. That is called integrity.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by sac51495, posted 08-18-2010 9:57 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 192 of 271 (575117)
08-18-2010 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by sac51495
08-18-2010 10:15 PM


Re: Correct, but uselessly so
the men who wrote the Bible were inspired by God
Prove it.
so that the words were products not of men, but of God
Prove it.
What basis is there for believing the words in the Bible to be any more true than other so-called inspired writings?
There isn't. Certain people just choose to do so.
He wrote down with His own finger
LMAO. Really, I really laughed at this one. So Moses wasn't needed? Anything, ANY writing you attribute to your sky-daddy was written by a man. Sorry to burst you bubble, pal.
I really did chuckle. Thanks for the laugh.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by sac51495, posted 08-18-2010 10:15 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


(1)
Message 193 of 271 (575120)
08-18-2010 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by sac51495
08-18-2010 10:15 PM


Re: Correct, but uselessly so
He wrote down with His own finger
That makes a lot of sense. (sarcasm to those who don't know my type of writing) How could Moses understand the writing when there was no formal writing at the time. What did god write in Cuneiform, Hieroglyphics? There was no alphabet at the time.
Edited by bluescat48, : added phrase & typu

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by sac51495, posted 08-18-2010 10:15 PM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by sac51495, posted 08-21-2010 2:39 AM bluescat48 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 194 of 271 (575136)
08-18-2010 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by sac51495
08-18-2010 10:04 PM


sac51495 writes:
ringo writes:
Does it occur to you that the misanthropic interpretations might be the ones that are wrong?
No, because that was not my interpretation. My interpretation is that the universe is "theocentric", by virtue of the fact that God created it.
That's my point. A theocentric universe makes little sense. (Some might argue that God isn't "in" the universe at all, much less at its center.) Why would God bother to create a universe at all if He was so self-centered? More to the point of the thread, why would He create it and then hide from it?

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by sac51495, posted 08-18-2010 10:04 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 195 of 271 (575246)
08-19-2010 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Theodoric
08-17-2010 8:58 AM


Re: Science: objective? Nah.
"Theodoric" writes:
The Adventures of Tom Sawyer is evidence for the existence of Tom Sawyer.
Tom Sawyer is sold as a fiction book.
Where is the documentation? Show me the documentation.
Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Early Historical Documents On Jesus Christ

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Theodoric, posted 08-17-2010 8:58 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by hooah212002, posted 08-19-2010 8:40 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 200 by Theodoric, posted 08-19-2010 10:03 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024