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Author Topic:   how exactly does Israel stabilize the Middle East and why do we need Israel?
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2516 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 9 of 108 (572031)
08-03-2010 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by dronestar
08-03-2010 10:40 AM


Of course, when a Palestinian blows up a bus, he makes sure there aren't any women and children in it first, just soldiers.
Yes, Israel did some pretty bad stuff, but the Palestinians aren't a happy happy bunch either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by dronestar, posted 08-03-2010 10:40 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by dronestar, posted 08-03-2010 11:53 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2516 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 13 of 108 (572039)
08-03-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by dronestar
08-03-2010 11:53 AM


Re: replay?
dronester writes:
C'mon Huntard, I thought you became enlightened about all this stuff.
Oh, I'd like to consider myself "enlightened" , as you put it.
Yes, the Muslem terrorists do target women and children and it is wrong. But . . .
What side (Israel or Palestine) CONTROLS movement, food, employment, water, health, security, human rights, to the point of life or death?
Yes, like I said, Israel does some pretty bad stuff, I just wanted to point out that it's not so easy as to point the finger to one party. Both are in the wrong here, maybe one is more wrong than the other, but it takes two to tango.
BTW, I read the Dutch are removing Afghan troups due to public pressure. Hooray for the Dutch!!!
That's not the case however. The reason we're removing from Afghanistan, is because one party of our then coalition government stepped out of the government because they didn't feel comfortable about making a decision to prolong our stay a bit. This meant no official stance could be taken by our government on the issue one way or another (for some reason they're fucking slow with writing out new elections here), and this led to an adherence to a previously made deal that we would depart on 01-08-10. Yes, there was a lot of pressure from the populace, but that was not the reason we went home, it was not a decision made, it was a bureaucratic thing. I'll see how this plays out for the local populace. But giving your dislike of America, you might be interested to know, that due to our leaving, the people we looked over are now in the hands of the Americans and Australians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by dronestar, posted 08-03-2010 11:53 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by dronestar, posted 08-03-2010 12:17 PM Huntard has not replied
 Message 19 by onifre, posted 08-03-2010 6:11 PM Huntard has replied
 Message 35 by dronestar, posted 08-04-2010 9:03 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2516 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 30 of 108 (572139)
08-04-2010 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by onifre
08-03-2010 6:11 PM


Re: replay?
onifre writes:
But in this case, it would be the same as saying black people tango'd with police during the civil rights movement. It took two to tango in their case too, but you can see how one side didn't really want to dance.
If not wanting to dance is blowing up busses with civilians, then I don;t know what is.
Israel (and the parties that aided) occupied land that they had no rights to.
True.
That is a very strong case for resisting on the part of the Palestinians don't you think?
Perhaps, but there are many ways of resistance.
So everything that has occured since that day (occupation) is in regards to the initial invasion/occupation by force.
I still say blowing up busses with civilians in them isn't a productive way of reaching an understanding.
{ABE}: I will shut up now, as this has nothing to do with the topic.
Edited by Huntard, : Added {ABE} bit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by onifre, posted 08-03-2010 6:11 PM onifre has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2516 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 34 of 108 (572159)
08-04-2010 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
08-04-2010 8:47 AM


Re: And your solution...
jar writes:
The claim was made, by Buz not by me, that the US needs Israel. My question is "Why do we need Israel?"
Some answers to that have been provided.
The best reason given so far has been that the US needs Israel to act as a surrogate threat so that the US does not appear to be the bad guy.
And from Buz's standpoint, I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks we need Israel pertaining to the end times. After all, without Israel, this is supposedly not possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 08-04-2010 8:47 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 08-04-2010 9:04 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2516 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 38 of 108 (572165)
08-04-2010 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by dronestar
08-04-2010 9:03 AM


Re: replay?
dronester writes:
I don' know how to link other messages, but have a read:
You mean like this:
Message 15
Use the number (in this case 523390) that goes with the message and use the [mid=(number here)] dBcode.
I've read the post (well skimmed it a bit, there's always so much to read in RAZD's posts), and I msut say I pretty much agree with everything I've read there.
I think it one of the better summaries on the Israel-Palestine conflict. Kudos RAZD.
Yes, as usual, a pretty good post by RAZD.
If Buzz continues to be absent on this thread, maybe we can re-activate the other one if you have further thoughts as this specific topic is off-topic per Jar's request.
We could, but bear in mind that I do not have a pro-Israel stance, they do horrible things. My only thing in this thread was preventing a too one sided perspective being raised.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by dronestar, posted 08-04-2010 9:03 AM dronestar has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2516 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 39 of 108 (572166)
08-04-2010 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
08-04-2010 9:04 AM


Re: Buz's position?
jar writes:
Well, until Buz shows up and explains why he thinks the US needs Israel I guess we won't know.
So far his only attempt to explain his position was to provide a link to a news article from Binyamin Netanyahu. Of course, since Mr Netanyahu is the current Israeli Prim Minister that doesn't answer the question but might show why Israel needs the US.
I wonder if Buz understands that the Israeli Prime Minister represents Israel's interests, not the US's interests.
Yeah, he needs to substantiate it more. I wouldn't count on anything productive, really.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 08-04-2010 9:04 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2516 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 50 of 108 (572268)
08-05-2010 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Flyer75
08-05-2010 3:26 AM


Re: Probably not....
Wouldn't god be able to protect them himself just fine? He did so in the past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Flyer75, posted 08-05-2010 3:26 AM Flyer75 has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2516 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 66 of 108 (572464)
08-06-2010 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Buzsaw
08-05-2010 10:29 PM


Re: World End?
Buzsaw writes:
You've got that wrong NWR. What most evangelicals believe is that the age of Gentile rule so far as world class empires is over at Armageddon at and near Jerusalem. That is when Jesus, messiah returns to rule the world for a thousand years. The planet and it's weather, terrain and atmosphere will be much like the pre-flood super climate where again humans will live much longer. Satan will be chained in a place called the bottomless pit and the weapons will be beat into plowshares, etc.
So in answer to Jar's thread question, Israel will indeed be the greatest stability to not only the Mid East, but to the entire planet.
Well, hate to say I told you all so, but in Message 34 I did say:
Huntard writes:
And from Buz's standpoint, I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks we need Israel pertaining to the end times. After all, without Israel, this is supposedly not possible.
SO yeah, he does think that.
I know it all sounds undoable, but climate change, Mid East events, particularly the restoration of Israel the emergence of Islam and global government all attest to the veracity of the prophecies, both OT and NT. It all is indeed coming to frution and moving along astonishingly rapidly.
No it isn't, it won't happen within your lifetime, nor will it happen in mine, nor will it happen at any time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 08-05-2010 10:29 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 08-06-2010 8:43 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2516 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 68 of 108 (572521)
08-06-2010 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Buzsaw
08-06-2010 8:43 AM


Re: World End?
Buzsaw writes:
Prepare yourself and hang onto your hat, Huntard. Make your peace with God by receiving his son, Jesus, messiah as saviour and lord/master. It's been escalating for the last century and will escalate more rapidly into fruition within, I say within, 50 years; more likely sooner than later!
I will remember those words when I sip my Interstellar Martini on Luna Beach 1. And I will laugh. hard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 08-06-2010 8:43 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2516 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 90 of 108 (572690)
08-07-2010 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Coyote
08-06-2010 11:32 PM


Re: Kill them all?
Coyote writes:
Israel means that it may, hopefully, not happen again.
Really? Why would we need Israel for us to never persecute Jews again, can't we just, you know, not do it again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Coyote, posted 08-06-2010 11:32 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-07-2010 8:16 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2516 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 93 of 108 (572701)
08-07-2010 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dr Adequate
08-07-2010 8:16 AM


Re: Kill them all?
Dr Adequate writes:
Couldn't you say that about any proposed remedy to any evil?
Yes. But isn't that what it comes down to anyway? I mean, if you really wanted to persecute the Jews, them having their own nation isn't gonna stop you, now is it? It'll make it a lot harder, sure, but ultimately, not persecuting the Jews is only possible when you just stop doing it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-07-2010 8:16 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-07-2010 9:22 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2516 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 100 of 108 (572715)
08-07-2010 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dr Adequate
08-07-2010 9:22 AM


Re: Kill them all?
Dr Adequate writes:
And if you really wanted to commit murder, the law wouldn't stop you. But that's not a satisfactory argument against having penalties for murder.
True.
But unsuccessfully persecuting the Jews is possible when they can kick your ass into the middle of next week whether you try to persecute them or not.
Also true. I guess I'm just too optimistic again, thinking people can be reasonable and not hate each other. Ah well, until that glorious day arrives, I guess having a state is the next best thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-07-2010 9:22 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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