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Author Topic:   how exactly does Israel stabilize the Middle East and why do we need Israel?
nwr
Member
Posts: 6484
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 46 of 108 (572207)
08-04-2010 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
08-04-2010 2:10 PM


Re: Does the world need Israel?
Phat writes:
If the US stopped supplying Israel and if Israel were actually forced back to her pre 1967 borders, it would not foster peace any more than there is now, in my estimation.
There are very few options available to Israel. The main options that I see are:
1: Return to something approximating the pre-1967 borders;
2: Continue its current expansionism, become more and more brutal in its oppression of Arabs, and eventually become such a pariah state that even USA will find it difficult to support them.
3: Continue its current expansionism, but remain democratic. In a few years time, the Arab majority will win a national election and then, for all practical purposes, Israel will be no more.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10297
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 47 of 108 (572214)
08-04-2010 4:31 PM


Perhaps some christians could help me out on this one. Is the US view towards Israel heavily influenced by the idea that a Muslim controlled Israel would prevent christians from visiting holy sites? Is this a common fear within the American christian community? I am not trying to be judgemental, just wondering.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 51 by nwr, posted 08-05-2010 7:43 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 59 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-05-2010 11:00 AM Taq has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 108 (572215)
08-04-2010 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
08-04-2010 4:31 PM


If it is a concern it is simply a matter of ignorance. Historically the Muslims have protected both Jewish and Christian sites in the Middle East as well as the pilgrims. Remember that those sites are also sacred in Islam.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 08-05-2010 9:41 AM jar has replied

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2675 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 49 of 108 (572267)
08-05-2010 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
08-04-2010 4:31 PM


Probably not....
I don't personally think so. At least I've never heard this argument within circles that I've read or listened to. I think there IS more of a "these are God's chosen people, we must defend them" mentality out there though.

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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2547 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 50 of 108 (572268)
08-05-2010 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Flyer75
08-05-2010 3:26 AM


Re: Probably not....
Wouldn't god be able to protect them himself just fine? He did so in the past.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6484
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 51 of 108 (572285)
08-05-2010 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
08-04-2010 4:31 PM


Taq writes:
Is the US view towards Israel heavily influenced by the idea that a Muslim controlled Israel would prevent christians from visiting holy sites?
No, I don't think that's a serious concern.
The bigger issue is that many evangelical Christians believe in a totally absurd fantasy about a future end of the world, and that fantasy is centered in Jerusalem.

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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 108 (572313)
08-05-2010 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
08-03-2010 11:38 AM


Re: How Israel Stabilizes
Jar writes:
How exactly does Israel stabilize the Middle East?
These are starters for reasons that Israel delays the violent radical Islamic domination of the Middle East and ultimately the planet, as the Koran advocates. (embolding mine)
As the first target of the most radical regimes and radical sub-state actors in the region, Israel has a permanent, existential interest in preventing these regimes and sub-state actors from acquiring the means to cause catastrophic harm.
Israel's 1981 airstrike that destroyed Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor prevented Iraq from acquiring nuclear weapons. Despite US condemnation at the time, the US later acknowledged that the strike was a necessary precondition to the success of Operation Desert Storm ten years later. Richard Cheney - who served as secretary of defense during Operation Desert Storm - has stated that if Iraq had been a nuclear power in 1991, the US would have been hard pressed to eject Saddam Hussein's Iraqi army from Kuwait and so block his regime from asserting control over oil supplies in the Persian Gulf.
2 - Israel is a non-expansionist state and its neighbors know it. In its 62 year history, Israel has only controlled territory vital for its national security and territory that was legally allotted to it in the 1922 League of Nations Mandate which has never been abrogated or superseded.
Israel's strength, which it has used only in self-defense, is inherently non-threatening. Far from destabilizing the region, a strong Israel stabilizes the Middle East by deterring the most radical actors from attacking.
In 1970, Israel blocked Syria's bid to use the PLO to overthrow the Hashemite regime in Jordan. Israel's threat to attack Syria not only saved the Hashemites then, it has deterred Syria from attempting to overthrow the Jordanian regime ever since.
Similarly, Israel's neighbors understand that its purported nuclear arsenal is a weapon of national survival and hence they view it as non-threatening. This is the reason Israel's alleged nuclear arsenal has never spurred a regional nuclear arms race.
In stark contrast, if Iran acquires nuclear weapons, a regional nuclear arms race will ensue immediately.
Although they will never admit it, Israel's non-radical neighbors feel more secure when Israel is strong. On the other hand, the region's most radical regimes and non-state actors will always seek to emasculate Israel.
3-- Since as the Jewish state Israel is the regional bogeyman, no Arab state will agree to form a permanent alliance with it. Hence, Israel will never be in a position to join forces with another nation against a third nation.
In contrast, the Egyptian-Syrian United Arab Republic of the 1960s was formed to attack Israel. Today, the Syrian-Iranian alliance is an inherently aggressive alliance against Israel and the non-radical Arab states in the region. Recognizing the stabilizing force of a strong Israel, the moderate states of the region prefer for Israel to remain

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 08-03-2010 11:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 108 (572324)
08-05-2010 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Buzsaw
08-05-2010 9:14 AM


Re: How Israel Stabilizes
So as usual all you can provide is falsehoods and innuendo.
some jewish source writes:
2 - Israel is a non-expansionist state and its neighbors know it. In its 62 year history, Israel has only controlled territory vital for its national security and territory that was legally allotted to it in the 1922 League of Nations Mandate which has never been abrogated or superseded.
Simply not true and also irrelevant. Israel is an expansionist state and is even today building settlements on territory it took by force.
Do you ever read what you quote?
quote:
Although they will never admit it, Israel's non-radical neighbors feel more secure when Israel is strong.
Talk about innuendo?
Do you know what the 1922 League of Nations Mandate actually said?
Preamble to the 1922 League of Nations Mandate writes:
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
Have you studied the documents I presented in the thread So let's look at why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?
Do you understand that the 1922 League of Nations Mandate did NOT set aside any specific territory for a State of Israel, that NO territory was legally allotted to a State of Israel in that document?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 08-05-2010 9:14 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 08-05-2010 9:57 AM jar has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 108 (572327)
08-05-2010 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
08-04-2010 4:37 PM


Re: Islam Protects Judeo-Christian??
jar writes:
If it is a concern it is simply a matter of ignorance. Historically the Muslims have protected both Jewish and Christian sites in the Middle East as well as the pilgrims. Remember that those sites are also sacred in Islam.
Can you cite any specific instance where any Jewish Christian site has deliberately been preserved by Islamic entities so as to remain Jewish or Christian?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 08-04-2010 4:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 08-05-2010 10:01 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 108 (572335)
08-05-2010 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
08-05-2010 9:38 AM


Re: How Israel Stabilizes
jar writes:
Simply not true and also irrelevant. Israel is an expansionist state and is even today building settlements on territory it took by force.
Do you ever read what you quote?
Note this, Jar. "In its 62 year history, Israel has only controlled territory vital for its national security and territory......." Thus, after Israel took the Sinai Pininsula in the 1967 Six Day War, it promptly handed back the entire Sinai Pinsula to Egypt. Why? Because it was not considered vital to the national security and territory of Israel.
Bottom line: According to Biblical prophecy, Israel is only entiled by God to the land alloted to it by God.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 08-05-2010 9:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 08-05-2010 10:08 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 108 (572337)
08-05-2010 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
08-05-2010 9:41 AM


Re: Islam Protects Judeo-Christian??
Of course. The Church of the Holy Sepulcher and the Wailing Wall, the Monastery at Petra, Beathany Beyond Jordan, Umm-al-Rasas, the Byzantine church at Petra...Shall I continue?.
In addition, there is a long, long History of the Muslims protecting and guarding the pilgrims that visited the Middle east going back to Saladin.
There have been Christian and Jewish sites preserved and even in active use throughout the Middle East, in Jordan, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon...Shall I continue?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 08-05-2010 9:41 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Buzsaw, posted 08-05-2010 10:33 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 108 (572339)
08-05-2010 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Buzsaw
08-05-2010 9:57 AM


Re: How Israel Stabilizes
Buz writes:
Note this, Jar. "In its 62 year history, Israel has only controlled territory vital for its national security and territory......." Thus, after Israel took the Sinai Pininsula in the 1967 Six Day War, it promptly handed back the entire Sinai Pinsula to Egypt. Why? Because it was not considered vital to the national security and territory of Israel.
Bottom line: According to Biblical prophecy, Israel is only entiled by God to the land alloted to it by God.
Note the underlined parts. They are mutually exclusive. One is based on some God myth, the other on political necessity.
As expected, you seem to be basing your position on something that God might have said.
You do understand though that historically, Israel did NOT have any rights to Jerusalem. Jerusalem was in Judah, not the historic Israel.
Nor does it have anything to do with creating stability in the Middle East. How does Israel contribute to the stability of the Middle East?
Why does the US need Israel?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 08-05-2010 9:57 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 108 (572355)
08-05-2010 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
08-04-2010 2:10 PM


Re: Does the world need Israel?
If the US stopped supplying Israel and if Israel were actually forced back to her pre 1967 borders, it would not foster peace any more than there is now, in my estimation.
Yes, I agree. Israel will be despised no matter what she does, seems to me. The question is, do we, as a nation, want to get dragged in to a fight that should never been our fight to begin with because of Israel?
The answer is: no
America's interventionist policies have gotten us in to more problems than the problems it's solved.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 108 (572356)
08-05-2010 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
08-04-2010 4:31 PM


Perhaps some christians could help me out on this one. Is the US view towards Israel heavily influenced by the idea that a Muslim controlled Israel would prevent christians from visiting holy sites?
I think two things overlapped. Amongst the Christians it is almost entirely because it is supposedly prophetic, and the other is we felt sorry for the Jews in the Holocaust

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 108 (572448)
08-05-2010 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by nwr
08-05-2010 7:43 AM


World End?
nwr writes:
The bigger issue is that many evangelical Christians believe in a totally absurd fantasy about a future end of the world, and that fantasy is centered in Jerusalem.
You've got that wrong NWR. What most evangelicals believe is that the age of Gentile rule so far as world class empires is over at Armageddon at and near Jerusalem. That is when Jesus, messiah returns to rule the world for a thousand years. The planet and it's weather, terrain and atmosphere will be much like the pre-flood super climate where again humans will live much longer. Satan will be chained in a place called the bottomless pit and the weapons will be beat into plowshares, etc.
So in answer to Jar's thread question, Israel will indeed be the greatest stability to not only the Mid East, but to the entire planet.
I know it all sounds undoable, but climate change, Mid East events, particularly the restoration of Israel the emergence of Islam and global government all attest to the veracity of the prophecies, both OT and NT. It all is indeed coming to frution and moving along astonishingly rapidly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
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