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Author Topic:   Unintelligent design (recurrent laryngeal nerve)
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 466 of 480 (568369)
07-05-2010 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by ICdesign
07-05-2010 11:22 AM


Is ignorance bliss?
A fly is a fly. It always has been and thats all it ever will be.
You truly don't understand any of this do you. Do you really think evolution states that a fly can become a bird?
we would be surrounded by millions and millions of transitional forms
Look around you. Every species you see is a transitional form. Do you think we should be seeing all of the transitional forms that have led to a horse? That isn't what evolution predicts.
Before you start attacking, maybe you should learn something about the subject you are attacking.
Your personal attacks do nothing but highlight the weakness of your argument and your ignorance.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 11:22 AM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:04 PM Theodoric has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 467 of 480 (568371)
07-05-2010 11:40 AM


Some years ago I posted what I considered to be a pretty simple example of how good design works. It can be found in Message 8 where I try to point out that from an engineering perspective there is no Intelligent Design.
I stand by that observation and so far no one has been able to show me any examples that might challenge that perspective.
AbE:
It seems that thread is closed and so since it is fairly short, I am copying the content of the post here.
jar writes:
There is also the fact that the designer is too stupid to adopt good ideas.
Consider cars. There are many species or kinds of cars, Packard, Ford, Chevy, Mercedes, Humber, DKW, AutoUnion, Alfa Romeo, Citroen just as there are many kinds of mammals, lions, tigers, bears, man, orangutan, elephant, horse and of course, ohmys.
The difference between something designed, like cars, and those things that are not designed like mammals though can be seen in the difference in how good ideas do not propagate through out the living species or kinds.
In the early 1920s power windshield wipers appeared on the first car. Within only a few years they were found on every car.
In 1923 the first standard equipment radio appeared. Within only a few years they were found on every car.
In 1939, Buick introduced turn signals. Within only a few years they were found on every car.
The list is almost endless.
  • electric wipers instead of vacuum.
  • internal combustion engines.
  • radial tires.
  • heaters.
  • air conditioning.
  • roll down windows.
  • headlights.
  • mirrors.
  • steering wheels.
  • tops.
  • spare tires.
  • space saver spares.
  • starters.
  • the change from generator to alternator.
I could go on but that list should give you an idea.
In each instance this was a new feature that first appeared in only one make, sometimes only one model of a car. The designer though took good ideas from one model and applied those same ideas to EVERY model.
We do not see that when we look at examples of living critters. The humans brain is not then repeated in all mammals, the eagles eyes are not then repeated in all animals, good features, advances do not get incorporated across all the makes and models, species or kind, of mammals.
Looking at living critters what we find is NOT Intelligent Design.
Edited by jar, : add material from closed thread

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 07-05-2010 11:52 AM jar has replied

ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4798 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 468 of 480 (568372)
07-05-2010 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by Percy
07-05-2010 7:42 AM


Re: burden of proof
This thread is about whether the recurrent laryngeal nerve is really an example of unintelligent design.
OK thats fine Percy. I see you and all these other guys making all kinds of comments that have nothing to do with a laryngeal nerve.
I thought the point of the thread was to try to disprove the idea of an Intelligent Designer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Percy, posted 07-05-2010 7:42 AM Percy has not replied

Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 469 of 480 (568373)
07-05-2010 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by jar
07-05-2010 11:40 AM


We do not see that when we look at examples of living critters. The humans brain is not then repeated in all mammals, the eagles eyes are not then repeated in all animals, good features, advances do not get incorporated across all the makes and models, species or kind, of mammals.
You make a good general point. However, I fear it may back-fire in the case of the reccurent laryngeal nerve, where it might be argued by a creationist that the ciruitous route of the nerve in all mammals is evidence of a particular "feature" being adopted and incorporated across all "models".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by jar, posted 07-05-2010 11:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by jar, posted 07-05-2010 11:57 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 470 of 480 (568374)
07-05-2010 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
07-05-2010 11:52 AM


Not really. We are talking about good ideas being copied across marques but also being modified as needed for the particular critter. The idea of a laryngeal nerve as implemented in living mammals is a great example of piss poor design. The designer that used the wiring harness for a giraffe in a mouse would be fired in a blue second.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 07-05-2010 11:52 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 07-05-2010 12:14 PM jar has not replied
 Message 475 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 07-05-2010 12:17 PM jar has not replied

ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4798 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 471 of 480 (568375)
07-05-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Theodoric
07-05-2010 11:30 AM


Re: Is ignorance bliss?
Look around you. Every species you see is a transitional form.
Duh...OK thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Theodoric, posted 07-05-2010 11:30 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Huntard, posted 07-05-2010 12:12 PM ICdesign has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 472 of 480 (568376)
07-05-2010 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by ICdesign
07-05-2010 11:22 AM


Re: burden of proof
ICDESIGN writes:
This is one of your proofs Crash? I'm not sure if I should laugh or puke. A fly is a fly. It always has been and thats all it ever will be.
My prophetic powers allowed me to predict in Message 452:
Huntard writes:
I wonder how long until "They're still plants/They're still bacteria/They're still flies". comes up.
Thank you for proving my supernatural abilities.
ICDESIGN writes:
you haven't given me anything to respond to but a bunch of evo-babble in this entire post.
Translation: "I have absolutely no idea what any of this means, and since I'd rather be ignorant than even have to admit to the slightest possibility that I am wrong, I will label this evo-babble and pretend no evidence has been cited."
If you were even a fraction as smart as you think you are you would understand that if Macro-evolution had been taking place all this time we would be surrounded by millions and millions of transitional forms.
Well since we are, I guess he is pretty smart.
Is that what we see in the REAL world?
Yes.
No it isn't. We see every species staying within its own kind just like the bible has clearly stated all along.
You (creationists) can't even define kind. This statement is therefore meaningless.
I mean go back and read the foolish examples you just gave me.
They're actually not foolish. the fact you don't understand the slightest thing about this does not mean the examples given are either foolish, or not an example of speciation.
You've got to be kidding.
Nope.
Your waisting my time Crash & burn.
Since apparently you'd rather remain ignorant of the facts than actually learn something, it seems you are also wasting ours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 11:22 AM ICdesign has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 473 of 480 (568377)
07-05-2010 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by ICdesign
07-05-2010 12:04 PM


Re: Is ignorance bliss?
ICDESIGN writes:
Duh...OK thank you.
Since you are now admitting the fact that we do see millions of transitional species around us, I guess you will also admit that Crash is, in fact, pretty smart.
Edited by Huntard, : Spellings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:04 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 12:26 PM Huntard has not replied

Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 474 of 480 (568378)
07-05-2010 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by jar
07-05-2010 11:57 AM


Not really. We are talking about good ideas being copied across marques but also being modified as needed for the particular critter. The idea of a laryngeal nerve as implemented in living mammals is a great example of piss poor design. The designer that used the wiring harness for a giraffe in a mouse would be fired in a blue second.
I agree. I was just considering the creationists' argument that there may be some as yet unexplained advantage to having the RLN routed as it is. That's a ridiculous argument, of course, because you could say that about anything, and they do!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by jar, posted 07-05-2010 11:57 AM jar has not replied

Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 475 of 480 (568379)
07-05-2010 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by jar
07-05-2010 11:57 AM


Sorry, this was a copy of my previous message. Now deleted.
Edited by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by jar, posted 07-05-2010 11:57 AM jar has not replied

ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4798 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 476 of 480 (568381)
07-05-2010 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Huntard
07-05-2010 12:12 PM


Re: Is ignorance bliss?
I guess you will also admit that Crash is, in fact, pretty smart.
Yes. I admit Crash is very smart. I think most of you guys are extremely smart. All goes to prove that being smart has nothing to do with being right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Huntard, posted 07-05-2010 12:12 PM Huntard has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 477 of 480 (568382)
07-05-2010 12:34 PM


Another Plea for Getting on Topic
I'm not playing a moderator role in this thread, but the topic issue is pretty obvious, so with that prelude out of the way...
There are a number of other threads in the Intelligent Design forum that might serve pretty well for those who want to take the discussion beyond just the recurrent laryngeal nerve. Maybe someone could figure out which thread might be best to take this discussion (just click on that link for a list), then post a note here with a link to that thread.
Or maybe someone could propose a new topic over at Proposed New Topics. I'm going to be around most of the day and will promote it as soon as I notice it, assuming it's a good enough thread starter.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by Adminnemooseus, posted 07-05-2010 4:28 PM Percy has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 478 of 480 (568400)
07-05-2010 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by Percy
07-05-2010 12:34 PM


Closing time
I don't know if we've done the "summary messages only" routine yet, and I really don't care.
I think this topic might be a good example of the value of the old "shut a topic down at 300 messages rule". Such a specific topic theme should be easily cover-able in 300 messages. And this one probably was.
Closing down no earlier than in 15 minutes. Per Percy (aka Admin), propose new topics as you see fit.
Or something like that.
Adminnemooseus
ps: The reopen request link is in the "signature". For such to happen requires justification.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add ps and turn on signature.

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Report a problem etc. type topics:
Report discussion problems here: No.2
Thread Reopen Requests 2
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Other useful links:
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Admin writes:
It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.
There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.
Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Message 150

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Percy, posted 07-05-2010 12:34 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 479 of 480 (568402)
07-05-2010 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by ICdesign
07-05-2010 11:22 AM


Re: burden of proof
Oh, just saw moose's message. Maybe I'll make this a PM to ICDESIGN instead.
Edited by crashfrog, : avoiding unassailable last word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by ICdesign, posted 07-05-2010 11:22 AM ICdesign has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 480 of 480 (568406)
07-05-2010 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by Adminnemooseus
07-05-2010 4:28 PM


Re: Closing time - Time Has Come Today
Cue up the Chambers Brothers.
Closing.
AM

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Report a problem etc. type topics:
Report discussion problems here: No.2
Thread Reopen Requests 2
Topic Proposal Issues
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines
Admin writes:
It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.
There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.
Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Message 150

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by Adminnemooseus, posted 07-05-2010 4:28 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

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