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Author | Topic: How can theists believe in Darwinian evolution? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bolder-dash Member (Idle past 3656 days) Posts: 983 From: China Joined: |
It should be obvious to you what I mean, because you have just written the crux of the contradiction.
In this sense, for a Christian, nothing is "purely naturalistic" or unguided or unorganized. So what do you mean above? Darwinian evolution suggests that all of life occurred and can be explained ONLY by naturalistic events, that are unguided or unorganized-and yet for Christians nothing is purely naturalistic, or unguided or unorganized.
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Bolder-dash Member (Idle past 3656 days) Posts: 983 From: China Joined: |
Fell free to ask this in a thread where it is relevant.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yup, need to be accepted by a recognized chapter of a club in order to be a member of a club. Also, 'have been' does not qualify someone as being a member of the club. They can of course claim to 'have been' once a member of the club.
But heading back towards the topic... Are you aware of the Clergy Letter Project? It says in part:
We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as one theory among others is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. Currently it has been signed by over 12,000 Clergy, not simply believers or club members but Priests, Pastors, Ministers, clergy of all manner. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
I wonder if Bolder and Flyer would consider these non-christians.
Clergy Letter Project quote: I guess those pesky Methodists can all just be thrown right out. To carry this a step further. I wonder if Bolder and Flyer would even consider any of these they want to throw out of Christianity as deists? Are there any non-Christian deists? How would they define a non-christian deist? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 311 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Fell free to ask this in a thread where it is relevant. The post that you have now ducked for the third or fourth or fifth time, I've lost count, makes it perfectly clear why this is relevant. So, do you want to answer post #34, or do you want to try to dodge out of it again?
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Bolder-dash Member (Idle past 3656 days) Posts: 983 From: China Joined: |
I am generally aware that there are people that hold this belief. What I am asking here is for someone to explain in more depth what this belief is.
Do these people believe that at some point, 200,000 some years ago, when they believe some transitional species starting separating from a more apelike creature, that God suddenly decided, hey this is my chance, I like the current form that this accidental merging of protein goo has formed, "I choose this one to give a soul to-although other than this, I never interfere in anything going on down there BTW." Well, ok, that's not completely true, i have been giving souls to a lot of people since then, BUT other than these examples, I never ever get involved in anything going on there at all." This is what they believe? Was there a soul Eve-a sort of transitional apelike man that got the first soul, while all her brothers and sisters didn't? I sure feel sorry for all her poor sap relatives. And if she mated with a apelike man without the new soul thingy, did their newborn get the soul, while the father was still a cretin? More than likely most of them don't even have a clear understanding of what Neo-Darwinian evolution actually says I suspect.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Let me try to correct a few things.
First, Neo-Darwinian evolution is like all theories, a moving target. As new evidence is introduced, the Theory changes. Second, there is yet no evidence that there is a soul, what such a thing might be or that if such a thing exists, it is limited to humans. The Theory of Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with 'soul'. Ray Charles on the other hand, does. So did Billie Holiday, Eartha Kitt, Aretha Franklin, Big Mama Thornton and Janis Joplin. The existence of some soul is only a matter of belief. No one honestly has a clue whether or not such a thing exists. There is no way to test for its existence or verify its existence. There is not even enough evidence of the existence 'soul' to place it into the "Unknown Yet" folder. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee Member (Idle past 4968 days) Posts: 572 From: UK Joined: |
Hi Bolder-dash
This is what they believe? Was there a soul Eve-a sort of transitional apelike man that got the first soul, while all her brothers and sisters didn't? I sure feel sorry for all her poor sap relatives. And if she mated with a apelike man without the new soul thingy, did their newborn get the soul, while the father was still a cretin? I agree entirely with your point. It is absolutely ridiculous and dissonant for anyone to hold the view that humans emerged from a completely unplanned process of evolution, and simultaneously hold the view that we are God's special children.
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Woodsy Member (Idle past 3400 days) Posts: 301 From: Burlington, Canada Joined: |
Darwinian evolution suggests that all of life occurred and can be explained ONLY by naturalistic events, that are unguided or unorganized-and yet for Christians nothing is purely naturalistic, or unguided or unorganized.
This demonstrates that christians are out of luck, since there is no evidence of interference with the evolutionary process. Those poor chaps have been caught holding false beliefs. It is not a given that the ideas promoted by religions are true ideas.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 311 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Do these people believe that at some point, 200,000 some years ago, when they believe some transitional species starting separating from a more apelike creature, that God suddenly decided, hey this is my chance, I like the current form that this accidental merging of protein goo has formed, "I choose this one to give a soul to-although other than this, I never interfere in anything going on down there BTW." Well, ok, that's not completely true, i have been giving souls to a lot of people since then, BUT other than these examples, I never ever get involved in anything going on there at all." This is what they believe? Was there a soul Eve-a sort of transitional apelike man that got the first soul, while all her brothers and sisters didn't? I sure feel sorry for all her poor sap relatives. And if she mated with a apelike man without the new soul thingy, did their newborn get the soul, while the father was still a cretin? Nice tone of contempt. But you have yet to explain why the position you outline is sillier than your own theology. Indeed, so far as I can see, the advantage is all on their side. They are trying to give God credit for things that actually happened (apart from the stuff about souls, of course) whereas you are trying to give God credit for things that didn't actually happen.
More than likely most of them don't even have a clear understanding of what Neo-Darwinian evolution actually says I suspect. And you think you do? Oh, my dear chap.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2158 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Is this any different from any other scientific theory? All of science tries to formulate naturalistic theories that can fully explain scientific mechanisms, with no gaps in the explanation. quote:Yes; there is more to the universe than just testable science. We believe God is behind the scenes upholding the universe and the scientific laws that He has put in place. I'm still not clear what you are asking. Are you asking whether or not the science of evolution is compatible with Christianity? If so, the answer is yes. Or are you asking whether or not a naturalistic worldview is compatible with Christianity? To this the answer is no.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi again Bolder-dash
Great, well at least we are getting a little somewhere. Agreed.
Do you mind to explain why you believe in Deism? I find that I have certain beliefs. Curiously, I find that the best definition of a faith that fits these beliefs is Deism. Interestingly, I could tell you what I believe, but not why I believe. Like chocolate and the color green I can tell you that I like them but not why. Conceptually, I also like that Deism is not a formalized faith, where you need to be a card carrying member of some specific group that needs to approve your membership, as what I believe is independent on what anyone else believes (I don't think any real faith depends on membership, just on belief). One of these beliefs is that the evidence of creation is all around us, there to see and observe, and attempt to understand. Thus:
Any belief that is falsified by objective empirical evidence of reality is a false belief, IMNSHO, and thus should be discarded. This does not mean throwing out faith with the bathwater, just the beliefs that are contrary to reality. Beyond that, I believe that everyone has their own path to understanding the realities of life, the universe, etc. and thus telling anyone what I believe does not help them find their own path.
Message 91: Darwinian evolution suggests that all of life occurred and can be explained ONLY by naturalistic events, that are unguided or unorganized-and yet for Christians nothing is purely naturalistic, or unguided or unorganized. Science can tell you (the mechanics of) how things happened, based on the objective empirical validated evidence, but cannot tell you (the purpose) why they happened. Evolution tells us (the mechanics of) how humans have evolved, based on the objective empirical validated evidence, but cannot tell you (the purpose) why humans evolved. The evidence tells you that it happened, and thus, as I said in Message 21:
quote: Either you accept that the objective scientifically validated evidence of reality is an accurate record of creation, or you believe that everything is illusion. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Flyer75 Member (Idle past 2449 days) Posts: 242 From: Dayton, OH Joined: |
Theo, I really appreciate how you keep throwing me under the bus on this point. If you can quote me please do so, but I've never said that one can't believe in TE and not be a Christian at the same time....
I may question it, but I my opinion won't count for a hill of beans in the end. And yes, thus far, with the def that jar has given of Christianity, I feel I have every right to question his "christianity".
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Flyer75 writes: And yes, thus far, with the def that jar has given of Christianity, I feel I have every right to question his "christianity". Too funny. The definition I gave was of "Who could honestly call themselves a Christian" Of course you as well as anyone else has every right to question just about anything, however that is unrelated to the fact that I am a Christian. The real question is how can anyone consider themselves an Honest Christian and still not accept the fact of Evolution? Can they not see that they are committing and act of supreme hubris? How can any honest Christian try to teach Biblical Creationism without realizing that they are misusing the gifts of God and imposing ignorance on their children? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Well you seem to have been very supportive of the positions of Bolder, who clearly feels that it is not possible to be a christian and an "evolutionist".
Your quotes in this thread. That seem to have been supportive of Bolder.
Except Scripture clearly lays out what or who a Christian is...thus far I've seen from jar that he believes in GOD, nothing more. That is about a loose of a definition of a Christian as one can find out there...call it the Bono version of how to get to heaven...
IF Genesis and Scriptural revelation is relegated to mythology just because science tells us something else...then how strong is your faith and trust in the historicity of the resurrection???
is how can one claim to believe that Christ resurrected from the dead, or any of the "history" of the Bible, yet relegate Gen 1-11 to mythology or allegory???? You did make this comment, but I think your previous comments call this into question.
In a nutshell though, I'm in partial agreement with your OP in that I'm sometimes mindboggled what some Christians (yes, I said Christians) believe..... Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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