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Author Topic:   Detecting God
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 76 of 271 (567902)
07-03-2010 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by sac51495
07-02-2010 11:42 PM


Re: Futile Materialism
sac51495 writes:
Did you read the following arguments, which were more specific?...Taken out of context, you can make anything mean, ultimately, anything you want.
Well, no. I want this to mean I am your lord and master, as it is with all mankind. I'm having a hard time getting that from your quote though. Dammit!
Correct. I am a Christian, and if I - claiming to be a Christian - were to stand on something other than the word of God, then I would be grossly inconsistent.
Or realistic.
So if I wish to be inconsistent with my beliefs, then I would stand on something other than the Bible. But I care about what God wants me to do infinitely more than what you want me to do, so I'll take my stand on the Bible, despite what you say.
But you don't know what god wants you to do, you are not omniscient. You assume you know what god wants you to do, but you don't.
Besides, your an atheist; you are opposed to my God, so should I listen to Him who I believe to be at the very core of the universe, or him (you) who is opposed to my God?
Since I can actually be shown to be existing, I think I know where I'll place my bets.
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (II Tim. 3:16-17).
that's one of those clever lies satan put in there.
See, I can assert too. But somehow, my assertions don't pull the same weight with you. I wonder how you keep yourself in such a possition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by sac51495, posted 07-02-2010 11:42 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 77 of 271 (567925)
07-03-2010 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by sac51495
07-03-2010 12:44 AM


Re: Science over God?
Are you arguing against the Muslim god? Are you arguing against the Hindu "god"? Are you arguing against the Buddhist god? Are you arguing against the mythological Greek gods? The Roman gods? The Norse gods? The Egyptian gods? Are you an atheist? What is the positive position held by some on this forum that you are arguing against? If you are arguing against the Christian faith as an atheist, then you get to argue against it, and other religions are irrelevant. If I followed your logic, then I could cite all the other inherently atheistic worldviews that are out there, many of which you probably do not subscribe to, such as Behaviorism, Existentialism, Platonic Dualism, Monism, Deterministic Atomism, Pragmatism, or Egoism.
I am not an atheist, but rather a Christian.
I am arguing against the absurdity of detecting GOD. And yes, the Norse Gods and Egyptian Gods and Greek and Roman Gods are equally as likely as any of the different Gods found in the Bible.
Again, is your only support that the god you market is more likely than any other god the fact that you can find dialog in some story where characters make that claim?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 69 by sac51495, posted 07-03-2010 12:44 AM sac51495 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 271 (567927)
07-03-2010 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by sac51495
07-03-2010 1:29 AM


Re: Detection of God
"sac51495" writes:
Firstly, if you believe your anecdote about Tawa and Spider woman to be as equally foolish as Genesis, then why are you arguing against the Christians, as if their beliefs had some meaning to them? Why don't you argue against the believers in Tawa and Spider woman?
I don't believe either is foolish. They are both wonderful myths.
"sac51495" writes:
Secondly, why shouldn't the Bible be believed?
First, there is no such thing as "The Bible". There are many different canons, all determined by man, each one including or excluding material.
Second, the collections we call a Bible are anthologies of anthologies, written by unknown authors, edited and redacted by unknown people, complied by unknown committees.
Third, when we look at the Bibles we find that just as one would expect in any anthology, there are many contradictions between the stories different authors wrote and even more contradictions where the unknown redactors tried to combine and merge two or more stories by different authors from different eras together. A great example is in the Flood myth where at least two different stories were cobbled together.
Finally, I believe the stories exist. Just like so many fables, myths, fairytales, there is lots that can be learned from them.
"sac51495" writes:
But, most importantly: "As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1:9) This vs. establishes the infallibility of the Gospel story, which itself refers back to the Genesis account of our earliest history (about 6000 years ago) as though it were also inerrant.
Are you serious?
Do you really think that because a character in a story refers to events in another story as factual it makes them factual?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 79 of 271 (567952)
07-03-2010 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by DBlevins
07-02-2010 5:30 PM


Re: Evidence
quote:
Have you heard of the saying: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"?
It isn't true that the weight of evidence lies equally with both sides when making a claim. It is up to the claimant to provide the evidence which is then refuted or not refuted based on the quality of the evidence provided by the other side of the debate. and so on...
Agreed. Looking at it another way, the "extraordinariness" or "unlikeliness" of the claim constitutes de facto evidence against it, which requires additional evidence to counter.
From a historical and sociological perspective, of course, the "extraordinary" claim is atheism. Various forms of theism are the norm throughout history and throughout the world. So doesn't this put more burden of proof on the atheist?
quote:
If the non-physical 'reality' is able to affect the physical reality, then it isn't unreasonable to ask for physical evidence of said effect.
True. But what if the existence and operation of all physical reality depends moment-by-moment on a non-physical being? How could one detect this? There is no way to do a "control." It is a metaphysical question, not a scientific question.

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 80 of 271 (567954)
07-03-2010 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
07-02-2010 9:11 PM


Re: Detection of God
Hi jar,
jar writes:
"ICANT" writes:
God Bless,
Which God?
The God of Genesis 1:1 that created the Heaven and the Earth.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 07-02-2010 9:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-03-2010 2:15 PM ICANT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 271 (567955)
07-03-2010 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ICANT
07-03-2010 2:05 PM


Re: Detection of God
"ICANT" writes:
Hi jar,
jar writes:
"ICANT" writes:
God Bless,
Which God?
The God of Genesis 1:1 that created the Heaven and the Earth.
God Bless,
Ah, so not the God of Gen2&3; understood.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2010 2:05 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2010 3:36 PM jar has replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3373 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 82 of 271 (567961)
07-03-2010 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by sac51495
07-03-2010 12:19 AM


Re: Science over God?
Also, a laboratory could not exist were it not for the metaphysicist. This is because for any epistemological beliefs to be put in place (as in science), metaphysical beliefs must be put in place first. As an example, if a scientist wishes to determine what the nature of a ladybug is, and he thus determines the best way he should go about doing that (epistemology), he must first have a number of metaphysical beliefs in place, e.g., he can determine the nature of a ladybug, and other such things.
Yet more gibberish.
Experience shows that science works. No handwaving woo-woo is needed.
So having established where epistemological reality stems from (it stems from metaphysical reality), the question remains; from where does metaphysical reality stem from? "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen 1:1); "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day." (Exodus 20:11); "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." (Col. 1:16-17).
How is it that you do not see the absurdity of quoting the bible to someone who does not accord it any authority at all? You are demonstrating the deleterious effects of religion upon the human intellect.

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 83 of 271 (567964)
07-03-2010 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dr Adequate
07-02-2010 10:22 PM


Re: Detection of God
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes:
Incidentally, if what happened to Saul wasn't a sign from heaven, then what would one look like? Would there also be a brass band and a parade of elephants?
In Acts 3:1-26 we have the story of a lame man from birth who sat at the entrance to the Temple begging alms of those who entered. When Peter and John went to enter Peter said unto him "silver and gold have I none but such as I have give I thee. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." Peter took him by the hand, his feet and legs receive strength and he went into the Temple walking, and leaping and praising God.
The people that knew him was amazed at this event. Peter then preached Jesus to those who were in the temple on Solomon's porch.
This man lame from birth who had been healed was a sign for the Jews in the Temple.
We have another event I recognize as a sign in:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
This was a sign to the people present and of today. Do not make a vow to God and then not keep the vow.
We have another event I recognize as a sign in:
Acts 9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
9:37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
9:38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.
9:39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
9:41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
9:42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.
Because this person that was dead was made to live again many people believed. Yes I think this was a sign to those and us today.
We have another event I recognize as a sign in:
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)
10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
The gentiles receiving the Holy Ghost was a sign unto the Jews that gentiles was accepted by God.
We have another event I recognize as a sign in:
Acts 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
20:10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
20:11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
This young man's life being restored was a sign to those in Paul's presence and us today.
Paul tell us in:
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
We have that which is perfect Paul was talking about. In fact by 90 AD it was completed with most of it completed prior to 70 AD.
We now have the Word of God and have no need of signs. If one will not believe the witness we have in the Word he will not receive the witness of any sign that might be given.
As you see here everyone can find an excuse for not believing in a sign.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2010 10:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 84 of 271 (567965)
07-03-2010 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
07-03-2010 2:15 PM


Re: Detection of God
Hi jar,
jar writes:
Ah, so not the God of Gen2&3; understood.
Ah, but Genesis chapter 2:4 through chapter 3 has the same God as they are the history of the DAY the LORD God created the heaven and the Earth.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-03-2010 2:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 07-03-2010 3:54 PM ICANT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 85 of 271 (567967)
07-03-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by ICANT
07-03-2010 3:36 PM


Re: Detection of God
Nonsense.
Yes I know about your claims but they are simply silly.
It is also totally irrelevant to this topic even if it was true.
The topic is on "Detecting God" and quoting what is said in stories is hardly support or evidence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2010 3:36 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 86 of 271 (567999)
07-03-2010 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ICANT
07-03-2010 3:30 PM


Signs And Wonders
In Acts 3:1-26 we have the story of a lame man from birth who sat at the entrance to the Temple begging alms of those who entered. When Peter and John went to enter Peter said unto him "silver and gold have I none but such as I have give I thee. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." Peter took him by the hand, his feet and legs receive strength and he went into the Temple walking, and leaping and praising God.
So a lame man being healed is a sign ... but a light from Heaven, Jesus putting in a personal appearance, and a blind man being healed is not a sign?
I'm clearly not quite grasping the criterion. Unless it's "because ICANT says so".
We have that which is perfect Paul was talking about. In fact by 90 AD it was completed with most of it completed prior to 70 AD.
We now have the Word of God and have no need of signs.
Can we therefore conclude that every report of a miracle after the first century is a lie?
If one will not believe the witness we have in the Word he will not receive the witness of any sign that might be given.
Is there a word for the opposite of an a fortiori argument? Only that would be the mistake that you're making.
It is plainly, clearly, blatantly obvious that if some people can be persuaded to devote and even sacrifice their lives to Islam or Christianity or whatever just because they read some unevidenced claim in some book, then they would also be persuaded by something which, unlike writing stuff in a book, actually required the existence of God.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 87 of 271 (568194)
07-04-2010 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by sac51495
07-01-2010 4:03 PM


"sac51495" writes:
You are correct that God is not part of the measurable world. However, your logical progression fails in the second part of your sentence, because no one ever said that reality only includes the measurable world.
If god is not part of the measurable world, how do you know he/she/it exists?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by sac51495, posted 07-01-2010 4:03 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 88 of 271 (568195)
07-04-2010 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Artemis Entreri
07-01-2010 9:39 AM


Re: Old answer for an old question
"Thomas Aquinas" writes:
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.
Using the Oxford definition of faith we have:
faith: strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
And applying the definition to the quote, we have:
To one who has "strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof", no explanation is necessary.
read that a few times... does it make sense to you?

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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 89 of 271 (568196)
07-04-2010 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by onifre
07-01-2010 5:16 PM


Re: What do you mean by "god"...?
"Onifire" writes:
But have they given you any description of what to look for?
Pick a God, any God...
"Onifire" writes:
You know it's effects and know what you're looking for. You are completely in the dark as far as god/s go.
I struggle to think of a religion (perhaps Buddhism) that does not employ a doctrine promoting some form of reality meddling, thought reading, invisible overseer. Surely if reality is affected, we can measure it.
"Onifire writes:
Likewise you can't claim it - whatever "it" is - isn't part of the measurable world.
Nor can I claim it is, which is the essence of my argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by onifre, posted 07-01-2010 5:16 PM onifre has replied

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 90 of 271 (568505)
07-06-2010 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by killinghurts
07-04-2010 8:36 PM


Re: What do you mean by "god"...?
Pick a God, any God...
I'm an atheist, I don't recognize the word god to mean anything.
But my question was if anyone gave you a description of what to look for? Did they, or has anyone, ever given you specific details of what god is or how to detect him/her/it?
Or has it just always been an ambiguous, almost nonsensical attempt to describe virtually nothing?
I struggle to think of a religion (perhaps Buddhism) that does not employ a doctrine promoting some form of reality meddling, thought reading, invisible overseer.
Jainism, many Native American religions and also Wicca, Neo Pagan, Asatru view nature as god (and there is evidence for nature) - off the top of my head these are a few. Then there is any other possible individual concept of god that may not include any of the specfications that you mention.
If you seek to detect the word god in reality you have to first figure out what people mean by god.
- Oni

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